Need Info on Sasha's elements

[robert]

Can anyone describe for me exactly what the following elements are:
The Sasha Spiral; The Sasha Curl; The Sasha Skid and The Sasha spin?

Also does anyone know how a particular (new) element gets named after it's inovator? Such as the Axle!

It appears that Sasha is heading in a direction that will have more elements named after her than any other skater in history! just curious.
Robert

[crazyskiier]

Sasha Spiral (I think)
http://www.scratchspin.com/2002/cano...fs-0206805.jpg
Sasha Spin
http://www.scratchspin.com/2003/worl...s-0301807A.jpg
Sasha Curl
http://www.sashafans.com/media/galle...hennadeff1.jpg
Sasha Skid
http://www.sashafans.com/media/galle...ong/scfs03.jpg

I'm pretty sure elements are just named after who performed them first. E.g. Ulrich Salchow, Denise Beillman.

[M4oboe]

Here is some stuff I found:
"Sasha spiral' with an incredibly high leg lift, and a very fast 'Sasha spin', again performed with her free leg held straight up over her head."
Here is something on the sasha spiral from her journal awhile ago:
"I love your leg lift spiral that you do (Sasha Spiral). I can lift my leg and grab it over my head, but how do you turn onto your inside edge so smoothly?
Stacy from Washington
It took about a month of practice. At first I couldn't turn and glide. Just turn and stop. But I learned to really pull my balance up and really think of lifting as I glided. That way I have less resistance and have more speed coming out."

Here's a nice link that was an interview with her:
http://www.teenfx.com/interview.cfm?...=&inter_id=344

For moves getting named after you, I've read lots of information and it seems that if you create a move that is not already created, and it's unique and good, then it can be your signature move, and if lots of people start doing it then soon it can be named after you. There's not a naming ceremony or anything, just people will call it say the sasha spiral, because it is how sasha does her spiral.

crazyskiier - Yep those are the moves, I just couldn't find pictures for my entry.

[robert]

Thanks guys, but I'm still unsure of a couple. The Sasha Curl I agree with. Unique to Sasha.

The Sasha skid (from your photo) is like a front catch foot or fan spiral where Sasha turns from a backward IE to a forward OE through a graceful transition 180 turn, so she must skid into the turn slightly. This is also unique, never seen any other skater attempt this.

Isn't The Sasha Spiral the one that she and MK use as their signature move? Only Sasha's extension and 180 split is better. Some say MK gets more edge, but I don't really see any difference there.

I thought the Sasha spin was the I-spin invented by Sasha and only fully done by her; Arakawa also tries it quite well, but without achieving the tight body to leg climax (bringing her leg up to touch her face).

I haven't heard the commentators using these names yet. Does anyone know why not? Does Sasha have to be, say an Olympic champ or World champ for her inovative moves to be recognized by ISU or USFSA??? Just wondering.

[LC]

John Nicks is the one who gave the names to Sasha's moves. They aren't really new moves as they have been done before but done in different variations and better than anyone. The name Sasha Spiral has been used by commentators. It is the fan spiral followed by the skid as I understand it and it is the combination of the 2 right after each other than makes it different. The fan spiral is the first picture that crazyskiier had(Sasha Spiral) and has been done by other skaters. Ilia Kulik did a darn good one.

The Sasha curl is unique but she hasn't done one in quite awhile. Growing and the back injury I think just make it harder for her to do it anymore.

I don't think the I spin has been called the Sasha spin very much. Has another name that is more common on the internet that I'm sure many have heard but wouldn't be repeated by a commentator. Other people have done the I spin as well but not as good as Sasha.

There was an uproar that they were giving the Sasha names to moves that were not new. She may have done them better than anyone but she didn't invent them.

Yes the name Axel, Salcow and lutz were named after the first person who did them. Same thing with Ina Bauer. Was a women named Ina Bauer. I'm not sure she actually invented the move but was the one who made it famous. That is how those names get tagged on them. Denise Beilman did do the first "Beilman spin". It was a spin that nobody had done before with her pulling her leg over her head in the last part. I don't think I've seen anybody do it as well as she did. Hard spin to describe so it gets named a Beilman. That is how they get names. They need to call it something and the technical term can be too long and non skaters may not understand it. Easier just to call it by the first person who did it or made it famous. People know what a Beilman looks like. The Tano lutz is named after Brian Botaino. Easier to say that than Lutz with hand over head.

[MKFSfan]

LC is right about Nicks naming these moves after Sasha, I remember the uproar fans had over it and the jokes that resulted. The problem was they weren't new moves, yes, Sasha had more extension than some had, but they had been done before. At the time I thought Nicks probably was just trying to do some positive PR for Sasha or something. I also agree with LC who said when people say "Sasha spiral" they are referring to going from the Maribel Vison Owen spiral into the skid spiral. At least, that is what I think of. Both, as well as every other move listed, has been done by other skaters and has a name, but I think fans and commentators like to acknowledge a certain move after a more current skater has used it often. If that makes sense...It's like calling COE spiral the Kwan Spiral, or likening it with Michelle, but she wasn't the 1st to do it. Nicole Bobek was another skater with wonderful extension and a limber back, and she is probably one skater who has done most of the same moves that Sasha includes in her programs. This year, Sasha has included 2 new spin positions that aren't often seen, but they aren't new, and she does them so wonderfully!

[SashaTheGreat]

I believe Sasha does put some unique finishing touches on some of these moves, that I've never seen anyone else do in the past. The way she changes edge on her fan spiral, without holding her free leg, and then continues into a skid move ("Sasha skid"), where she continues to hold her leg up, makes a turn and stops. She've done all these moves in her SP at Nationals these year. I've never seen Kulik to finish his fan spiral the same way -- very difficult move, shoes great control and superb edging. Michelle does a skid move in her "Bolero" program, but she raises her leg after she makes a turn, not as difficult as "Sasha skid." Sasha's forward scratch spin, she did in the R&J at Exhibitions (with arm variations), I believe is also unique to Sasha. And as to jokers and nay sayers on the Internet -- it's better to just ignore them, and give Sasha credit, when credit is due.

[MKFSfan]

Originally Posted by SashaTheGreat

I believe Sasha does put some unique finishing touches on some of these moves, that I've never seen anyone else do in the past. The way she changes edge on her fan spiral, without holding her free leg, and then continues into a skid move ("Sasha skid"), where she continues to hold her leg up, makes a turn and stops. She've done all these moves in her SP at Nationals these year. I've never seen Kulik to finish his fan spiral the same way -- very difficult move, shoes great control and superb edging. Michelle does a skid move in her "Bolero" program, but she raises her leg after she makes a turn, not as difficult as "Sasha skid." Sasha's forward scratch spin, she did in the R&J at Exhibitions (with arm variations), I believe is also unique to Sasha. And as to jokers and nay sayers on the Internet -- it's better to just ignore them, and give Sasha credit, when credit is due.

I agree with you-what makes a certain move special is the skater's personal touch, otherwise they would all be the same. You can watch 4 skaters do, say, a charlotte, but all 4 may do it totally different. That's what I love about skating, it's not just A, B, C!

As for the scratch spin-that was a thing of beauty! She gets so much speed. Michelle used to do similar arm varitations very early in her career, but she didn't get that kind of speed.

I'm not sure what you mean about changing edges in her fan spiral. In the SP, Michelle goes into her fan spiral from a back spiral. In her LP, she does her COE, strokes, and then the fan sprial. I thought Sasha stroked before picking up the fan position in both sequences? I could be wrong, I'd have to rewatch it. Did you mean, went from the fan spiral directly to a skid? That is an amazing move. Michelle doesn't do a skid move after her fan spiral-in the LP she does a "Y-spiral".

As for the jokers naysayers-this wasn't a bash on Sasha. My comment over the uproar/jokes was made in reference to the fact that Nicks was calling certain moves as "Sashathis" and "Sashathat" to the media, which lead to all this "SashaXYZtm".

[robert]

This has been extremly helpful, and thanks also for keeping the tone very, very civil, maybe I really do love you guys. way to go isn't it? it allows everyone to learn something while being civil to each other. Thanks a million.
Robert

[MKFSfan]

Originally Posted by robert

This has been extremly helpful, and thanks also for keeping the tone very, very civil, maybe I really do love you guys. way to go isn't it? it allows everyone to learn something while being civil to each other. Thanks a million.
Robert

One of the reasons I enjoy coming here is because although this is a Sasha fan forum, I get the feeling, for the most part, all skaters are appreciated and that most posters do want to discuss skating, not bash someone or promote one skater over another all the time! And of course, whenever you can learn something, it makes discusions more worthwhile!

[loveskating]

Sasha's Russian split is also among the best...I can only think of Rory Flack Burghardt's as equal, and she goes up more than across...I like the way Sasha gets great height on hers and goes flying across the ice, seems for ages and also her beautiful position on this...very crisp, very explosive.

Her front catch (see 2002 SP) spin is better than Rudy Galindo's even, who previously set the standard on this spin, IMHO, becasue the spinning leg is straighter, and the caught leg is closer to the body...and she does lots of rotations. Its amazing.

I don't think anyone beats Sasha's outside edge spiral in any way...perhaps MKs is more leaned on the inside edge.

I never feel that Sasha wished a spin would end...I always feel she loves to spin, and I love how she gains speed on most of her spins once she is in the spin, and so well centered too. I call her and Lucinda Rue (and NNN) the "endless spinners"! I also love the complexity of her combination spins, how she is always doing something different and better, more difficult.

For me, none of this stuff about "perfection being broken" is true. I always love to see Sasha skate, it is always a treat, whether she wins or not. Even when she falls, I'm right back with her in a few seconds, because everything she does is so high quality, so special. I know we might never see skating like this again, so I am enjoying every single second of it. Of couse, its even better when she wins.

[AxelAnnie]

Originally Posted by robert

Thanks guys, but I'm still unsure of a couple. The Sasha Curl I agree with. Unique to Sasha.

The Sasha skid (from your photo) is like a front catch foot or fan spiral where Sasha turns from a backward IE to a forward OE through a graceful transition 180 turn, so she must skid into the turn slightly. This is also unique, never seen any other skater attempt this.

Isn't The Sasha Spiral the one that she and MK use as their signature move? Only Sasha's extension and 180 split is better. Some say MK gets more edge, but I don't really see any difference there.

I thought the Sasha spin was the I-spin invented by Sasha and only fully done by her; Arakawa also tries it quite well, but without achieving the tight body to leg climax (bringing her leg up to touch her face).

I haven't heard the commentators using these names yet. Does anyone know why not? Does Sasha have to be, say an Olympic champ or World champ for her inovative moves to be recognized by ISU or USFSA??? Just wondering.

It is my understanding that Mr. Nicks and Sasha used these names. I don't think it was ever their intention to have them be "ratified" in any kind of organized fashion. I think to have a mov named for you, one must be the first to do it. Like the "Tano Lutz" named after Brian.
Boy, it chapped a lot of hides when those names became known. People really took it all personally LOL!

[robert]

A search of the net revealed the following skating moves that have been named after their originators:



Lutz: named after Alois Lutz

Salchow: named after Ulrich Salchow

Axel: named after Axel Paulsen

Hamill Camel: named after Dorothy Hamill

Biellmann Spin: named after Denise Biellmann

Grafstrom Spin: named after Gillis Grafstrom.

Harding Spin: named after Tonya Harding and

Ina Bauer: named after her



Can anyone tell me if any of these elements became known as such while the particular skater was still a competitor or did it occur after they retired from competition? I couldn’t seem to find such details on the net.



The various moves that Sasha has been innovating apparently have generated a strong opposition from fans of “other” skaters. It seems the usual argument is that the particular Sasha move does not significantly differ from the original. I don’t always buy that argument. Some are so very different especially in technical difficulty, so apart from sour grapes, I don’t really get the reason for the opposition. Has it always been that way? I haven’t been aware of a newly named move since I became a serious skating fan in the 1990’s. So what is the point that I seem to be missing? I wish there was some way to understand how such things work, because if they are left to the acceptance of the skating fraternity, or worse, to the fans, then poor Sasha is S-O-O-L! The non-Sasha fans will probably try to block it.

Anyway thanks guys, so far I've learned alot
Robert

[loveskating]

Not sure about all of them, but I know from being a fan that the Tano Lutz, the Hammil Camel and the Bielman were all used while the skaters were either amateur or in their early professional careers. In the past, you really could not be an Olympic champ without innnovating something.

[MKFSfan]

[QUOTE=robert]The various moves that Sasha has been innovating apparently have generated a strong opposition from fans of “other” skaters. It seems the usual argument is that the particular Sasha move does not significantly differ from the original. I don’t always buy that argument..[/font]

Robert-if Sasha invents a brand new skating move, then it should, and most likely will, be named after her. She adds different variations to some of her elements, as do many skaters, but that doesn't make it a brand new move. This is not a bash against what you believe, or in any way am I trying to cut down on Sasha attempting to add her own flavor to a move. I'm definately not "generating a strong opposition". But by saying that she deserves to have old moves named after her because she does them in her unique way, even if they are better than the originator, well, they are still old moves! Irina does a wonderful Beilman spin, and Lucinda Ruh does it even better, but that doesn't change the fact Denise Beilman was the 1st to do this spin and therefore it's named after her. I get what you are saying about the Tano Lutz, how it's the variation of the arm that gives the lutz the name. I find it interesting that when someone does the same move while doing an axle, it's referred as a Tano Axel! But anyway, if every single time someone takes an element, does something different with it to make it "theirs", we renamed the position-like "MaribelVinsonOwenSashaCohenspiral", well, all these positions would have names that get so complexed and long! Then there are some elements that don't have people names, but each skater has their own "trademark" to it, and that's how it gets associated, like a COE being linked with Michelle, or the I-spin with Sasha.