Skating Article in current issue of SI [Archive]

MKFSfan

01-23-2005, 04:42 PM

has anyone read the article from nationals in the current issue of sports illustrated? it's about time someone who knows about skating put it out there.... i couldnt have said it better myself!

Are you serious? I'm not sure this article is figure skating friendly. Basically it's about the future skaters, the up-comers, which is what this author gernerally targets. What I didn't like is the author basically blames Michelle for the lack of progress in US Ladies skating, saying she holds back the sport. That the US ladies are being overcome by the Russian and Japanese jumpers.
A quote:
"The result is that American skating has been surpassed on the world stage by that of Russia and Japan whose top performers routinely land quadruple jumps and triple Axels."

OK...Who are these ladies "routinely" landing quads and 3axles and winning? Seems to me that's happening in Jr. ranks, NOT Sr. Last year there were 2 US ladies on the World podium, where were these jumpers then? Yes, Shizuka beat them by having the more difficult jump combos, but they were still on the podium. In moy opinion Michelle's influence on the sport in the US is to start a trend of becoming a more complete skater, which was evident watching this year's Nationals. Now, I know Michelle needs to up her technical aspect if she hopes to contend for a Worlds or Olympic Gold, for her, she decided longetivity was better for her than being a flash in the pan. The up-and-coming skaters may have more jumps in the arsenal, but they also have the spirals and spins and better basics than we have been seeing. In a way, Sasha is following that lead, working on other aspects of her skating, which is what makes her great, not the jumps, rather than risking back injuries (which apparently she's prone to) and early retirement. I'm not taking on who's better, skater A or skater B, just trying to say that the US still has a deep field waiting to burst out, and having well rounded skaters like Michelle and Sasha as role models has influenced that. I also do realize that competiting with the likes of some of these jumping beans from other countries has put the demand on the younger skaters to have a 3/3, axle or quad. I'm just not sure at what cost though.

The same author has been waiting for the next Great One to overtake Michelle. He praises Kimmie here, just like he went nuts over Naomi, and I believe he did the same with Sasha in 2000, or was it Sarah?

My favorite part of the article is the 2 page picture of Michelle and this one part:
"At 24,with a record 12 medals at the nationals, Kwan is the Cal Ripken of figure skating - consistent, durable and beloved. Her lack of an Olympic gold medal aside, there's no disputing her performance under pressure."

All in all, I think this is one sports writer that shouldn't write about Figure Skating, he probably doesn't think it's a real sport.

SashaTheGreat

01-23-2005, 05:28 PM

Interesting, haven't read the article, but I think I agree with the premise here. As much as unfriendly it seems towards Michelle Kwan, I find the over all assessment accurate. I myself said in the past that Kwan is a destructive force in US skating, her concentrating on "longevity" instead on pushing of technical envelope, I'm afraid, have served as a wrong example for many younger skaters, including Sasha. There's no doubt on my mind, that many are trying to emulate Michelle, starting with coach hopping, to her abstaining from the GP circuit, to concentrating on skating "clean" at the price of going for a predictable, unchallenging, unexciting (except for heavy emoting via orgasmic facial expressions -- which in turn prompt sexual references from commentators) programs.

There's no doubt on my mind, that skaters, like Sasha, at one point or another looked at MK's success, while thinking -- why should I go after that hard 3/3 combination, or an elusive quad (or a full competitive year), when all I have to do is deliver a simpler, but mistake free skate at "important" competition.

I think this is what Robin have talked about, when she said she told Sasha, that "unless you're at very top, you cannot afford stagnation." Of course skating cleanly (even with lesser degree of difficulty) over and over again, still requires a special gift -- steadiness, cool head, "nerves of steel" -- something very few posses, and Michelle does. Her winning formula is not for everyone, but still, her example must be so tempting to follow, that's why we don't see too many girl, like Kimmie, trying to bring difficult jumps into women's skating. And unless these youngsters succeed quickly enough, they stop trying, why take a risk, when you might as well win without it. At least with Sasha there are so many other things she can offer in her skating -- new spins, innovating spirals, etc. But MK, oh well, the wow factor with her is the number of a medal she's going after. Trying to win her NINTH National's title, very exciting for her personally, but really what kind of a "record" is that? To tie with so and so for number of medals won, wouldn't putting a 3/3 into her program be ten fold more exciting and inspirational? I understand that writer's frustration, and personally, I'd take Kimmie's imperfect 3 Axel over Michelle's umpteenth title, won with watered down jump content. At least Sasha tried to hit all of her required jumps, but failed, unfortunately.

zippythesqurl2

01-23-2005, 07:40 PM

Interesting, haven't read the article, but I think I agree with the premise here. As much as unfriendly it seems towards Michelle Kwan, I find the over all assessment accurate. I myself said in the past that Kwan is a destructive force in US skating, her concentrating on "longevity" instead on pushing of technical envelope, I'm afraid, have served as a wrong example for many younger skaters, including Sasha.
I'm sorry. But this is one of the most irresponsible things I've ever heard. The demand of "pushing the envelope" on young women's and men's bodies s extremely damaging. Do you want more Taras? Do you want more skaters with fake hips before the age of twenty? I L-O-V-E the new scoring system because it doesn't place such an emphatic emphasis on the jumps. Instead of getting innovation in hard-pounding, destructive jumps we're getting it in the largely overlooked and very underdeveloped moves in the field.

There's no doubt in my mind, that many are trying to emulate Michelle, starting with coach hopping, to her abstaining from the GP circuit, to concentrating on skating "clean" at the price of going for a predictable, unchallenging, unexciting (except for heavy emoting via orgasmic facial expressions -- which in turn prompt sexual references from commentators) programs.

Michelle hasn't coach hopped. She's switched coaches, yes, but in her what? 12 years on the senior level? She's switched coaches how many times? 3-4? (depending on if you count her coaching herself as a 'coach change' which, by the way, is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, but I digress).
And besides, coach 'hopping' existed long before Michelle and will continue long after she's gone. It's nothing new.
And your low blow about her facial expressions? Sasha does that too. Lest we forget. And, what remarks from the judges? You mean Dick saying she wasn't near seductive enough for the music? Because that's what he actually said. If you listen closely, you'll see it was in critisizing her presentation. So, yeah. Anyway.

I hate when people use petty arguments.

jobelle

01-23-2005, 07:52 PM

ahhhhhh,
guys we're just rehashing the same old arguements and conversations. Can we pleeease leave Michelle vs. Sasha alone for awhile. Unless somebody has new information these conversations are getting to the point where they are of no value. Just about every thread has morphed into the same topic.

hillwilliam

01-23-2005, 07:55 PM

I thought the whole article was terrible. I'm thinking of sending a letter to the editor of SI.

MKFSfan

01-23-2005, 07:57 PM

Sashathe Great: You are definately entitled to your own opinion. And you do raise many interesting, argumentative points. I stick my mine. Michelle, Sasha, etc. can do whatever they feel is needed to push themselves or put forth whatever program they want. I do believe Michelle has bettered US skating. I feel sorry that the skater who have come and gone with injuries may have sustained them trying to compete with the likes of Michelle. I believe Tara would have ended up with the hip injury regardless of Michelle, but who knows. I think it's impressive that Michelle has lasted 10 years, at the top of her sport. Of course I would love to see her land a 3/3, toe/toe or not, but not at the expense of her health. I feel she has a lot to offer outside the jumps, as you say of Sasha. She may not be the spin demon that Sasha is, but she has improved her spins. Her jumps are bigger, whether that's due to prepping a 3/3, I couldn't say. Her speed is better, footwork improved, spirals amazing and I love that she's trying new positions. i don't expect people to agree with me 100%, but I don't see how someone can follow figure skating for years and not see the improvements in Michelle's skating, whether they like her or not. COP hopefully will put less emphasis on jumps and more on other aspects of skating and therefore lead to less injuries and early retirements. Then we will have Michelle to thank, if that's the case, when our younger skaters rack up points in their non-jumping elements. Now that there's an age requirement, the kids seem to be focusing more on edgework and basics, which is a HUGE thing, in my opinion, and has been lacking from alot of skaters that did not train in figures. Another thing-at least Michelle IS a positive role model beyond just a skater, for the kids to look up to and follow the lead of.

I agree with zippy... regarding the coach hoping/changing thing. So many skaters switch, way before Michelle ever did. What is the big deal, anyway? I've never criticized a skater for switching, that's their choice, but when a skater actually admits they changed in hopes that the new coach will be the decision maker between a gold and silver medal, well, that seems like a skater may be making excuses and placing blame elsewhere. I'm glad Sasha has realized this and is taking resposibility for her skating now.

SkateFan

01-23-2005, 08:49 PM

ok, i didnt mean to start a fire. this wasnt about michelle vs. sasha. this was about giving a pat on the back to a young skater who was competing at the senior nationals for the first time and yet she had the courage to even attempt and actually land a triple axel and the jump didnt take away from her overall performance... it was about giving something new to skating. im all about looking for the complete package, but i have to say that in my opinion michelle has been skating dry, clean, reserved, not taking any risk because she wants to be on top. i understand she wants to win, but because of that, no younger skaters have ever really had the chance to be recognized for doing something great other than tara who was amazing in beating michelle for national, world, and olympic gold. sasha has fought with inconsistency, but this wasnt about sasha or tara. it was about how michelle won, but recognition is going to kimmie for her accomplishment. i have been a fan of kimmie since 2002-2003, and i am so proud of her and what she has done. being in sports illustrated will put her name out there for casual fans who only hear of michelle kwan and are a fan of her because they only watch casually and dont understand that other skaters are doing more difficult elements.
all i can say is GO KIMMIE! im behind kimmie all the way

and yes, E.M. Swift does know about skating.... has anyone ever read "my sergei" ? ever noticed the co-author's name on the cover??

attyfan

01-23-2005, 09:30 PM

SashaTheGreat

01-23-2005, 10:50 PM

I haven't brought up changing of coaches, because it's a "big deal," or Michelle didn't have a right to go for it, if she felt it was necessary for her, but rather to show that her decisions get copied by other skaters. Actually, this is what John Nicks have said recently in the interview, that perhaps playing "musical coaches" became such a trend in the recent years, because it was MK who introduced it.

This is NOT a Sasha/Michelle comparison thread. Someone brought up an article from Sports Illustrated, I happen to wholeheartedly agree with the writer, and I'm glad that there are observers, who unlike Hersh, or Brennan concentrate on the cool analysis of the transgression of the figure skating in the US, and not on the "soap opera," that allegedly surrounds it.

Regarding injuries -- they happen in every sport (unfortunately), there are categories of athletes, who risk their health even more than skaters do. There is a wonderful, honorable way to continue skating, while staying virtually injury free -- become a professional. Anyhow, formula for Michelle's successful performance, IMO, is trying to stand on her feet, and 6.0 would follow. By the way, I disagree that MK pushed Sasha to improve such areas of her skating, as spins and spirals -- Sasha's ahead of her in these categories. Rather Sasha should be pushing MK to upper degree of difficulty of her non jumping elements, and that's what COP calls for anyway.

Taiga

01-23-2005, 10:56 PM

MKFSfan

01-24-2005, 09:10 AM

SkateFan -- I haven't read anything here -- or even on the MKF -- that disapproves of giving a pat to Kimmie for landing the triple axel. Just because the SI article joins the applause for Kimmie, though, does not make it accurate when it blames Michelle for "holding back" American skaters. Michelle didn't hold back Kimmie; she didn't hold back Tara, Sarah or Sasha, either. In fact, Tara even admitted that she blew her hip out on 3/loop 3/loop combinations because she thought she couldn't beat Michelle without it. IMHO, Tara and Sarah were good enough to win the OGM, in part, because Michelle gave them such a consistently high level of competition, so when they got good enough to beat Kwan, they were also good enough to beat everybody else.

Very, very well said, and I agree with all your points, including a big kudos for Kimmie for including a 3 axles in her program. I just wish her all the success!! I wish the media had built Kimmie up without feeling the need to tear others down. That's my gripe with this article.

As for Tara, I think she could have very easily gone the other way. She could have ended up as another "What if?" had she had to retire due to injury before winning. A lot of things worked JUST right for her at the time, and she deserved all her winnings. I've made it a habit not to dispute results, but what if things hadn't worked out for her? Michelle had won the LP at Worlds, remember how disappointed Tara was-shows she is a Big Competitor! She wanted to win all the phases. What if Michelle hadn't made a mistake on her combo in the SP, and was 1st or 2nd heading into the LP? Or what if judging panal at the OG turned out in Michelle's favor? It was close, one of the greatest showdowns in skating. With some different twists of fate, we would be adding Tara's name to the ever growing list of poor, injured kids who didn't make it, and a "waste of talent". Lucky for Tara, this didn't happen and she will remain a big star skater who won her OG medal with a wonderful skate. She worked very, very hard and proved to be a big time competitor. She has stated it's all worth it, and absolutely no regrets. Good for her!

I'm not criticizing Tara, or trying to say she didn't deserve her Golds, she definately did, I'm saying what if it didn't happen? We wouldn't have another young skater, with a once in a lifetime skate (after Sarah's SLC skate) to promote why young skaters should up their tech. aspect.

This is one reason I like COP-more emphasis on over-all skating, and the age requirement for Sr. Look at Miki-she was the Next Jumping Bean, and has gotten blasted under COP for her combo. cheats/under-rotations and lack of strength in her other skating elements. Kimmie has stronger parts to her basic skating, like edges and jump technique, but needs to add more elements, better spins and spirals, MITF, etc. I think, and get that 3axle fully rotated before she can become the Next Great One. But she has time!!

zippythesqurl2

01-24-2005, 11:05 AM

I haven't brought up changing of coaches, because it's a "big deal," or Michelle didn't have a right to go for it, if she felt it was necessary for her, but rather to show that her decisions get copied by other skaters. Actually, this is what John Nicks have said recently in the interview, that perhaps playing "musical coaches" became such a trend in the recent years, because it was MK who introduced it.

You know. I just don't get this. MK didn't introduce "coach hopping." Nicole Bobek didn't even introduce it. Long before Michelle switched from Frank Carrol I had a skating friend who had been through 5 different coaches. Each for various reasons. This all just smacks of people trying to shift Sasha's switching coaches into being Michelle's fault. And that's just not fair.

I mean, I could understand it if Michelle was going from coach to coach and everyone else clamored to be taught by those coaches because Michelle was taught by them.
It's just pure ignorance to think anything like this. I'm seriously baffled.

And because Nicks says so doesn't make it cannon. He's always had pretty loyal students, but even back in 2000 I had a friend that moved to California to be taught by him. She then switched to someone else at the rink, then another, then another at another rink in California and then she came back and was taught by the same coach and then she switched to my coach AND then she switched to someone else.

Anyway, sorry to babble. My whole point being, I don't care if people think Michelle has held skating back because there is probably some truth to that. But Michelle starting a "coach hopping" trend is just complete bull.

loveskating

01-24-2005, 01:28 PM

I haven't read the article, but this subject interests me...

I'm not sure this article is figure skating friendly. Basically it's about the future skaters, the up-comers, which is what this author gernerally targets. What I didn't like is the author basically blames Michelle for the lack of progress in US Ladies skating, saying she holds back the sport. That the US ladies are being overcome by the Russian and Japanese jumpers. A quote: "The result is that American skating has been surpassed on the world stage by that of Russia and Japan whose top performers routinely land quadruple jumps and triple Axels." .

Uh, isn't Ando routinely landing quads? Kimmie is routinely landing 3 axels; in any case, Irina, Ando, Onda, Sebastyn, Sokolova, Suizuka are all "routinely" landing 3/3 combos of the 3 sal/3 loop level of difficulty, are they not? I've never seen Kwan land a flip combo since Salome, and even that was not legit, while Sasha routinely lands flip combos.

OK...Who are these ladies "routinely" landing quads and 3axles and winning? Seems to me that's happening in Jr. ranks, NOT Sr. Last year there were 2 US ladies on the World podium, where were these jumpers then? Yes, Shizuka beat them by having the more difficult jump combos, but they were still on the podium. In moy opinion Michelle's influence on the sport in the US is to start a trend of becoming a more complete skater, which was evident watching this year's Nationals. Now, I know Michelle needs to up her technical aspect if she hopes to contend for a Worlds or Olympic Gold, for her, she decided longetivity was better for her than being a flash in the pan. The up-and-coming skaters may have more jumps in the arsenal, but they also have the spirals and spins and better basics than we have been seeing. In a way, Sasha is following that lead, working on other aspects of her skating, which is what makes her great, not the jumps, rather than risking back injuries (which apparently she's prone to) and early retirement. I'm not taking on who's better, skater A or skater B, just trying to say that the US still has a deep field waiting to burst out, and having well rounded skaters like Michelle and Sasha as role models has influenced that. I also do realize that competiting with the likes of some of these jumping beans from other countries has put the demand on the younger skaters to have a 3/3, axle or quad. I'm just not sure at what cost though..

None of the following could remotely be characterized as "jumping beans"! Irina, Sebastyn, Sokolova, Suizuka, and although coltish Kimmie's presentation is probably a good as Sarah's was; Ando's is not bad either, rough around the edges is all, and they are all winning competitions nationally and internationally.

I don't think Michelle has shown on the ice that she has become a "more complete skater", instead, I see a continual decline in the quality of all her skating, which peaked at Worlds, 2001.

Why is it that skating in front of the world for 3-4 years is "a flash in the pan" by definition? Kulik was dominant from 1996-1998, but if you look at the quality of the skating, of the legacy to the sport, to the actual skaters in emulating them, you see Kulik all over the place, inclding in the COP as to transitions and jump entries! Kwan has been around 10 years but her real legacy will be making the second lutz necessary and a higher level of artistry required.

The same author has been waiting for the next Great One to overtake Michelle. He praises Kimmie here, just like he went nuts over Naomi, and I believe he did the same with Sasha in 2000, or was it Sarah?..

I don't care what his intentions are! The fact is, there is more than one (Tara) whole package, high difficulty skater now who can easily beat Michelle with a clean, high risk skate, and only one of them is from the US (see my above list).

My favorite part of the article is the 2 page picture of Michelle and this one part:
"At 24,with a record 12 medals at the nationals, Kwan is the Cal Ripken of figure skating - consistent, durable and beloved. Her lack of an Olympic gold medal aside, there's no disputing her performance under pressure."..

Yes, well, I think that is sad. In 2001, or even as late as after the 2002 Olympics, it could have been said of her that she raised the technical and artistic level of the sport, particularly from 1999 to 2001, which she certainly did. Now, because she has stayed too long at the party, and is in decline, she is famous for something else of far less value to anyone but herself...those records books may inspire, but for any kid who has a passion to skate, its going to be Sasha's higher quality elements which are carried on.

azncarrot

01-24-2005, 03:19 PM

Kimmie is routinely landing 3 axels; in any case, Irina, Ando, Onda, Sebastyn, Sokolova, Suizuka are all "routinely" landing 3/3 combos of the 3 sal/3 loop level of difficulty, are they not? I've never seen Kwan land a flip combo since Salome, and even that was not legit, while Sasha routinely lands flip combos.

Last time Michelle landed a flip combo was during the first incarnation of Aranjuez. Also between Salome and SLC, she was "routinely" placing the 3T/3T in the program instead of fthe 3F/2T.

loveskating

01-24-2005, 03:49 PM

Last time Michelle landed a flip combo was during the first incarnation of Aranjuez. Also between Salome and SLC, she was "routinely" placing the 3T/3T in the program instead of fthe 3F/2T.

Well, I said in my post that Kwan was dominant for real from 1999 to 2001, and I recall the first 3/3 toe loop she landed was in the LP at Nationals 1999. I give her that, freely, honestly. She was a great, great skater.

I meant that MK does not routinely land a 3 flip/2 tl these days, Sasha does, just as Irina routinely lands a 3 lutz/2 loop and lately, some 3 sal/3 loops.

I go farther...it is Sasha and Irina people seem to be emulating...for instance, if you look at Arakawa's LP at the last Worlds, you see Sasha's influence clearly...and yes, you see the second lutz as well, but that is pretty much a fixture by now, not pushing many, and you see a 3 sal/3 loop. I don't think Kwan is pushing anyone anymore.

azncarrot

01-24-2005, 03:58 PM

Well, I said in my post that Kwan was dominant for real from 1999 to 2001, and I recall the first 3/3 toe loop she landed was in the LP at Nationals 1999. I give her that, freely, honestly. She was a great, great skater.
Actually, it was during the 2002 Worlds Qualifying round.

SashaTheGreat

01-24-2005, 05:54 PM

You know. I just don't get this. MK didn't introduce "coach hopping." Nicole Bobek didn't even introduce it. Long before Michelle switched from Frank Carrol I had a skating friend who had been through 5 different coaches. Each for various reasons. This all just smacks of people trying to shift Sasha's switching coaches into being Michelle's fault. And that's just not fair.

Anyway, sorry to babble. My whole point being, I don't care if people think Michelle has held skating back because there is probably some truth to that. But Michelle starting a "coach hopping" trend is just complete bull.

Golly, I did not expect this thread to become a venue for another discussion of ligitimacy/importance of a coach changing.

By the way, whoever wrote that article did not mention that Michelle made such changes, the emphasis was all MINE, since I tried to argue that whatever MK does in regard to her skating, would be followed by scores of other skaters.

Perhaps I shouln't have said that Kwan INTRODUCED "coach hopping," and I realize, that she and Bobek were doing similar thing at approximately the same time, and that Nicole changed coaches more often, than Michelle. BUT, there is no arguing about MK's having much more of an influence on the up and coming skaters, than anybody else in the US. Whatever NB used to do could have become notorious, and serve as a poor example (and switching coaches as often, as Nicole did may become a major distraction for an athlete, though generally I'm not opposing it); when Michelle jumped on the same bandwagon -- it contributed to turning "musical coaches" into a big trend in skating. That was, I think, what Mr. Nicks was talking about, and IMO he has a point here, as much as he has an experience to testify that such trend wasn't common for top skaters, until Michelle've picked it up.

I hope I made myself clear now, and whatever I felt was negative in the MK's influence for younger skaters -- frequent coach changes was the least important.

SkateFan

01-24-2005, 05:55 PM

for everyone commenting who hasnt read the article, here it is. i typed it up. at least kimmie shows joy in her skating. i find that in every picture of michelle's spiral, she has a face that looks like she is in terrible pain or anger. i dont see the beauty in that at all. and her moves that lead to sexual references.... i think we could do without those as well....
i bolded what was already bolded in the magazine... the things in italics were just points that i wanted to italicize.

"flash of the future"
michelle kwan made history with her ninth win at the us championships, but daring 15-year-old kimmie meissner almost stole the show
by e.m. swift

its not nice to upstage the woman of the hour, the legend hell-bent on reeling in that other legend, the skater all the screaming fans have come to see. But thats exactly what happened last saturday night in portland's rose garden arena at the us figure skating championships, where 15-year-old kimmie meissner earned the loudest roar of the competition and stole some of the sporlight from michelle kwan's stage. No, the baltimore-born meissner, a whisp o' will, didnt knock off the redoubtable kwan, who won her eighth straight us title and ninth overall, tying her with the great maribel vinson owen for the most us championships. meissner did, however, breathe fresh air into a sport that had begun to stagnate in the us and offer a peek into the future of american skating by becoming the first us woman in 14 years to land a triple axel in competition. the last to do so? portland's own tonya harding, before she moved on to a life of boxing and temporary restraining orders. when asked what she remembered about harding, who was banned from us skating for her role in the 1994 attack on nancy kerrigan, the 5-foot meissner, who was one year old at the last time a us woman ever attempted a triple axel in competition (and who will be too young to compete in this year's world championships), blushed and stammered and finally said, "i pretty much just remember the scandal."
that's pretty much what everyone remembers. but harding could jump and she had moxie, attributes of which us skating could now use a healthy dose. the kwan era has been one of nice, safe, clean skating- not exactly the stuff of riveting theatre. nor of reviting sport.
at 24, with a record 12 medals at the nationals, kwan is the cal sipken of figure skating- consistent, durable and beloved. her lack of an olympic gold medal aside, there's no disputing her performance under pressure. but she's a careful champion, not inclined to take risks and never pushing the envelope of her sport. for years shes been working on a triple-triple- a combination jump that kerrigan and kristi yamaguchi were landing in the early 1990s. but kwan has resisted attempting it in competition because, except in those rare instances when a young, fearless tara lipinski or sarah hughes was hitting on all cylinders, she hasnt needed it to win. by being so cautious, kwan has held back skating in the us because most youngsters tend to follow the lead of reigning champions. the result is that american skating has been surpassed on the world stage by that of russia and japan, whose top performers routinely land quadruple jumps and triple axels. the new scoring system, called the code of points, which puts greater emphasis on levels of difficulty, might help. these nationals were the last in the us to be held under the 6.0 system, and the judges celebrated by doling out these once-treasured emblems of perfection like sale-bin items at Kmart. come and get 'em! two for one!
ice dancers tanith belbin and ben agosto, who train in canton, mich., got 14 6.0s in portland for example, more than brian boitano received at nationals in his entire nine-year career. they were nine for nine in 6.0s for presentation in their free dance, which, while polished, will never make anyone forget torvill and dean. it was the first time any competitor or team had been given nine 6.0s by a panel at the nationals. (in march belbin and agosto will have a chance to become the first us ice dancers in 20 years at the world championships, but because belbin, who's canadian, probably wont get her us citizenship until 2007, this promising young couple likely wont be able to compete at the 2006 olympics in turin.)
johnny weir, the elegant stylist who won his second straight men's national title, was awarded five 6.0s for presentation for his free skate even though he slipped noticeably during his straight-line footwork.
then there was kwan, who was awarded seven 6.0s over the weekend, so her record now stands at 57 6.0s in competition, 42 of which have come at the nationals. never mind that the final four 6.0s were given for her flawed bolero long program, in which she doubled a planned triple lutz, never attempted a loop jump and finished skating several seconds after the music had stopped- a sign that she was behind the destinctive beat. not that the crowd noticed. they would have given kwan perfect scores for eating a cup of yogurt. "it was not my best performance," she admitted, "but i had a lot of fun."
any why not? the us championships are her venue, her theatre, her set on which to shine. kwan owns them. "i'm going to be sad when the 6.0 system goes," she said.
lurking in the shadows, kimmie meissner won't be. this young, gutty star should be grinning ear to ear.

(photo)
triple axel threat meissner was third behind kwan (above left), but may not be in her shadow for long.

edited: oops... i spelled ear wrong!

SashaTheGreat

01-24-2005, 07:06 PM

SkateFan, thank you for typing out the article for us. I love the observation here:

"never mind that the final four 6.0s were given for her flawed bolero long program, in which she doubled a planned triple lutz, never attempted a loop jump and finished skating several seconds after the music had stopped- a sign that she was behind the destinctive beat. not that the crowd noticed. they would have given kwan perfect scores for eating a cup of yogurt. "it was not my best performance," she admitted, "but i had a lot of fun."
any why not? the us championships are her venue, her theatre, her set on which to shine. kwan owns them."

SkateFan

01-24-2005, 10:48 PM

IceAlisa

01-24-2005, 10:58 PM

SkateFan

01-24-2005, 11:04 PM

PML at the yogurt comment. Sad but true. Great article save for the faulty statement that other female skaters routinely land quads and 3 axels. They do land them but not routinely. Otherwise, finally the truth has been spoken!
so true! i have two copies of the magazine! i needed two it was sooo good! its a nice pic of kimmie that they have too... i dont have any pics of her to frame cause she doesnt have auto pics cause shes still young... i think i might just have to frame the whole article!! :lol:

Dilng

01-24-2005, 11:44 PM

The fact is Michelle has held the sport back technically. Her spins have never been great and her hardest jump combination that she has achieved has been a triple toe triple toe. I can't even remember the last time that she attempted that combination. She attempted a triple lutz triple toe at Skate Canada in 2001 and she fell on that and never attempted it again.

Technically, she has not progressed since her younger days. It has worked fine for her because she is a consistent skater and has managed to win competitions when others failed at landing harder combinations except for Tara, Irina and Shiz. However, she has not moved the sport along technically. Sasha's spins are so fantastic and she is always doing new and different ones and she at least attemped the quad. I would say that Sasha's spins have contributed to skating.

Irina and Michelle have both been skating for a long time. Irina's spins, one- foot footwork, triple triple combinations and now her Bielman spiral have advanced the sport, but what has Michelle been doing to advance the sport technically?

Kimmie Meisner's triple axle at Nationals was exciting and definitely a move towards a more competitive USA. She will be able to compete with the Miki's of the World. I think the author was right about Michelle. She has been a role model for future skaters, but artistically Sasha is 100% better and young girls are following Sasha's moves. For example the novice skater at the exhibition on Sunday performed one of Sasha's moves, and I can see skater's wanting to spin like Sasha, but really what would a young girl want to copy technically from Michelle? Michelle is consistent and that is admirable, but if others are too, and have more technical abilty that isn't even going to matter.

zippythesqurl2

01-25-2005, 12:57 PM

Perhaps I shouln't have said that Kwan INTRODUCED "coach hopping," and I realize, that she and Bobek were doing similar thing at approximately the same time, and that Nicole changed coaches more often, than Michelle. BUT, there is no arguing about MK's having much more of an influence on the up and coming skaters, than anybody else in the US. Whatever NB used to do could have become notorious, and serve as a poor example (and switching coaches as often, as Nicole did may become a major distraction for an athlete, though generally I'm not opposing it).

No they weren't doing it at the same time. Not even close. Off by four years when Michelle switched coach for the first. Time. Ever. (She had been self taught until the point where Frank Carrol decided to teach her).
In fact, Mk switched in 2002, no? And she switched to no one. She just left and started coaching herself, right? So... where was the mass exodus of students leaving there coaches to train by themselves?
More to the point, since Sasha changed coaches at the end of that year, are you saying she switched because MK did? Do you really think Sasha would do that because Michelle did it? And her switch to Robin, was that because Michelle switched from the coach she had to Artuian (SP)?

Angela Switched coaches before Michelle did. I think. Or, maybe she switched to Carrol after MK left. Which is resonable since they both trained at the same spot and Frank had seen Angela grow up. And also because Frank is a good coach and Michelle was no longer taking up all of his time.

Tara switched coaches around WAY before MK did. From Sugerland to some coach that said some nasty stuff about her to Richerd Callahan.

AP switched from Tom because Tom isn't a nice person as was being really, really not nice to her (explative deleted). (I know this, because I skate(d) at world arena). And then she went back to him because she couldn't cope with the new teaching style.

Jenny switched coaches from the team that coached Nancy to the Callahan, when? I think it was before MK's split, but I'm not sure. And I'm pretty confident that this switch was because Callahan had produced an actual Oly gold medal and also her personal stuff.

Who else? Well the Pottenger couple teams split with David because a newer fancier coach moved into Dallas. And also ice time was a lot of the problem. This was a good year ago. But they're pair skaters and pair skaters have different standards when it comes to coaches. (But most of you won't know that or them, so...sorry for the ramble)
Hmmm, All of my coaches students switched coaches once she moved away. But that's to be expected. This was three years ago.
Most everyone I knew in Dallas switched coaches only when the parents would row with the coaches. And those students who did hop, continually hopped. Long before 2002, I might add.

when Michelle jumped on the same bandwagon -- it contributed to turning "musical coaches" into a big trend in skating. That was, I think, what Mr. Nicks was talking about, and IMO he has a point here, as much as he has an experience to testify that such trend wasn't common for top skaters, until Michelle've picked it up

Yeah, where is this "new" trend coming from? Because, as I've shown, Michelle didn't start it. And the only reason coach-hopping has gotten as much attention here is because Sasha has switched coaches a few times, and you're (and Mr. Nicks) trying to deflect that onto Michelle. This has been happening a lot since way before Michelle even thought of changing from Frank. Sashafans is just getting heated over all the "coach changing" because, really, Sasha has been doing it. And, frankly, I think it's offensive to Sasha for people to say she's so influenced by Michelle that she'd throw her future to the wind and coach-hop because Michelle did it.
So, why try and pin this on Michelle?

whatever I felt was negative in the MK's influence for younger skaters -- frequent coach changes was the least important.

that doesn't matter. You're accusing Michelle of something that's clearly baseless and asinine. No matter how small it is, it should always be a legitimate attack.

Always_Sasha

01-25-2005, 01:46 PM

Technically she stopped working with Frank in 2001, because I remember hearing about it at Skate Canada that year. But it was the 2002 season.

SashaTheGreat

01-25-2005, 03:08 PM

You're accusing Michelle of something that's clearly baseless and asinine. No matter how small it is, it should always be a legitimate attack.

I'm not attacking her, but raising, what I believe to be a legitimate point (and others do agree with me on that one). It's up to you to see things differently, if you wish so.

SkateFan

01-25-2005, 05:41 PM

Kimmie Meisner's triple axle at Nationals was exciting and definitely a move towards a more competitive USA. She will be able to compete with the Miki's of the World. I think the author was right about Michelle. She has been a role model for future skaters, but artistically Sasha is 100% better and young girls are following Sasha's moves. For example the novice skater at the exhibition on Sunday performed one of Sasha's moves, and I can see skater's wanting to spin like Sasha, but really what would a young girl want to copy technically from Michelle? Michelle is consistent and that is admirable, but if others are too, and have more technical abilty that isn't even going to matter.

personally, i would take kimmie over mike any day. i mean, miki is a sweet girl. she is so nice, and i love her exhibition program, but her competitive programs are kinda lacking. she focuses too much on the jumps. her spirals are so shaky everything is shaky. i think kimmie has shown us more of a complete skater. sure, there is always room for improvement, but at least the girl is graceful and athletic, and she shows a lot of courage. if miki will be at jr worlds this year, im looking forward to the rankings if both skate clean! i think kimmie has a good chance at bumping miki out of that gold medal place! i cant wait to see jr worlds results!

SkateFan

01-25-2005, 05:47 PM

personally, i would take kimmie over miki any day. i mean, miki is a sweet girl. she is so nice, and i love her exhibition program, but her competitive programs are kinda lacking. she focuses too much on the jumps. her spirals are so shaky everything is shaky. i think kimmie has shown us more of a complete skater. sure, there is always room for improvement, but at least the girl is graceful and athletic, and she shows a lot of courage. if miki will be at jr worlds this year, im looking forward to the rankings if both skate clean! i think kimmie has a good chance at bumping miki out of that gold medal place! i cant wait to see jr worlds results!

and i totally agree with what you are saying with the younger skaters. dick button said himself that young girls are pushing for that higher spiral because of sasha cohen's influence... he said no longer is a standard spiral acceptable... i totally agree. sasha is the one who is driving our little skating ladies to show more stretch, a more elegant line, and different movements than the standard sit spin, spiral, layback, lutz (and they are trying to land a triple lutz, not double it like mk did.). i think kimmie is showing some elegant moves as well... she doesnt look like she is in pain when she is performing them either, unlike mk

sorry, i didnt mean to double post there... i meant to click on edit and i accidentally clicked the quote button. sorry mods!

hillwilliam

01-25-2005, 07:00 PM

totally agree. sasha is the one who is driving our little skating ladies to show more stretch, a more elegant line, and different movements than the standard sit spin, spiral, layback, lutz (and they are trying to land a triple lutz, not double it like mk did.).

Sasha is definitely the skating benchmark for spins and spirals. However, I hope they are not copying Sasha's lutz. If they do, we will have a bunch of young ones who are flutzers!!

P.S. I think Michelle prefers to land triple lutzes rather than double them. I'm also certain Sasha prefers to land them rather than fall on them.

IceAlisa

01-25-2005, 07:02 PM

Well, Kimmie is not copying Sasha's and Michelle's flutz. Hers is a true lutz. About time an American lady had a correct take off on this jump.

hillwilliam

01-25-2005, 07:17 PM

Well, Kimmie is not copying Sasha's and Michelle's flutz. Hers is a true lutz. About time an American lady had a correct take off on this jump.

Good point about Kimmie's lutz. Do you know about Emily Hughes? Does she take after her sister Sarah, the Flutz Queen?

IceAlisa

01-25-2005, 07:21 PM

No, I didn't pay close attention to Emily. Did anyone? It's an interesting question.

jobelle

01-25-2005, 08:08 PM

do young skaters really copy other skaters' flutz's? I would think that would be really really really stupid and I would think that most coach's would try and correct any flutz's that they saw by teaching them good technique in the first place. I mean, I doubt that a young skater would watch sasha on tv and think to herself "wow, sasha has a flutz, that's sooo cool, I want to do one too".
If American skaters continue to flutz consistantly then maybe it's a coaching problem and the coaching (all coaches, I'm not just talking about the big name ones who coach the top skaters) in America will have to improve on that. Just a thought...

hillwilliam

01-25-2005, 08:17 PM

No, I'm sure the younger skaters don't copy Sasha or Michelle's flutz. I just mis-read someones previous post. I am still curious to know about Emily Hughes, is she a flutzer??

jobelle

01-25-2005, 08:19 PM

No, I'm sure the younger skaters don't copy Sasha or Michelle's flutz. I just mis-read someones previous post. I am still curious to know about Emily Hughes, is she a flutzer??

sorry, I just re-read my post and it sounded a bit like I was jumping all over you...hope it didn't sound too impassioned :) I just found it kind of funny to think that a young skater would intentionally copy another skater's bad mistake like that without a coach catching it and correcting it.

starryeyes780

01-25-2005, 09:04 PM

at least kimmie shows joy in her skating. i find that in every picture of michelle's spiral, she has a face that looks like she is in terrible pain or anger. i dont see the beauty in that at all. and her moves that lead to sexual references.... i think we could do without those as well....

Michelle never has a look of pain on her face when doing a spiral. Her spiral has been nicknamed "smiral" over at MKF!

She doesn't look pained here:

http://starbulletin.com/2002/01/10/features/art.jpg

That spiral is so gorgeous :)

HEARTtoSKATE

01-25-2005, 09:14 PM

I agree with starryeyes780, there is no look of pain on MK's face. I think her skating shows a lot of passion and love for the sport.

starryeyes780

01-25-2005, 09:15 PM

I agree with starryeyes780, there is no look of pain on MK's face. I think her skating shows a lot of passion and love for the sport.

Thanks Hearttoskate :) I agree with what you said also.

IceAlisa

01-25-2005, 10:47 PM

MK breaks out the pained look during the straightline footwork. Something like this:
http://www.usolympicteam.com/photo_gallery/michellekwan/photo01.jpg

azncarrot

01-25-2005, 11:35 PM

so this thread has spiraled down to examining facial expressions?

MKFSfan

01-26-2005, 12:14 AM

so this thread has spiraled down to examining facial expressions?

LOL...That's what I was thinking as well!

Actually, I LOVE the picture you put up IceAlissa, even if you didn't mean it in a positive way-this is the part when I tear up every single time I watch Aranjuez, I LOVE the way she emotes at the beginning of her FW, I thought it was perfect with the music. I also LOVE how her whole face is so expessive, how you can read in her eyes the emotion she's trying to convey, not just in her smile. To me, that's a great performer, she's selling and acting out her part, not just skating through the motions. I thought the 2 programs that year were SO different, in the moods and her expressions, and that spoke volumes about her musicality. Aran. was light and airy and joyful. TFB was more sensual and smoldering. I think that's part of the problem with Bolero thus far, she hasn't "settled" into character and had parts where she just skated through the motions at Nationals.

Re: smiral-I think we see alot of skaters trying to emulate this, smile big during the spirals even when it doesn't call for joy. I remember afew years back thinking it was so ridiculous when fans were going on and on about Sasha not smiling, how it meant she didn't have joy, and when she did smile during Carmen, I thought, huh? Didn't think it fit. Same as the original TFB before Nats. 03 when Michelle was smiling and I liked it better when she had that smoldering look.

Anyway, I took this thread even more OT!

PS...I believe Emily does have a true lutz, but I thought she cheated and lipped her flip a little. Anyone else catch that?

SashaTheGreat

01-26-2005, 01:09 AM

so this thread has spiraled down to examining facial expressions?

Sure seems like it. Does anyone have a picture of Michelle with a CUP OF YOGURT in her hand, just to see if it excites her fans just as much as a photo of her "smiral?"

MKFSfan

01-26-2005, 07:20 AM

Sure seems like it. Does anyone have a picture of Michelle with a CUP OF YOGURT in her hand, just to see if it excites her fans just as much as a photo of her "smiral?"

No, but I do have this beautiful picture of Michelle's milk mustache! Does that count?
http://www.geocities.com/milkadcollectingcentral/Kwan.jpg

Why so negative? I see just as many Sasha fans who love seeing pictures of her spirals.

starryeyes780

01-26-2005, 02:17 PM

Sure seems like it. Does anyone have a picture of Michelle with a CUP OF YOGURT in her hand, just to see if it excites her fans just as much as a photo of her "smiral?"

does this count? lmao this is so fun

http://heatherw.com/mk/endorse/pics/yoplaitad02.jpg

lol i love that pic! it's on the wall in my room lol

EDIT: the links aren't working, go to: http://heatherw.com/mk/endorse/yoplait.htm then scroll down to "Yoplait Expresse Ad"

zippythesqurl2

01-26-2005, 03:44 PM

Sasha can get the constipation face as well.
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2004worlds/qualifying/3.jpg

Just sayin'.

And Sahsathegreat, it's not a legitimate point abput MK starting "coach hopping," because, as I proved, it's absolutely baseless, and frankly, rather demeaning to Sasha and all of the skaters who are trying to make it (and end up switching coaches). 'Cause you're basically saying that these skaters have no minds of their own.

do young skaters really copy other skaters' flutz's?

No, they don't. Young skaters, if they have a coach, usually learn their jump technique from their coaches. Some coaches do teach the lutz as a flutz, though, becuase it gets results rather quickly if they have a good flip. So, generally speaking, skating technique for jumps and spins will almost always come from the coaches. Besides, you can't really learn from the telly.

SashaTheGreat

01-26-2005, 04:22 PM

[QUOTE=zippythesqurl2]Sasha can get the constipation face as well.
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2004worlds/qualifying/3.jpg

Just sayin'.

And Sahsathegreat, it's not a legitimate point abput MK starting "coach hopping," because, as I proved, it's absolutely baseless, [QUOTE]

I'm glad you managed to prove it to yourself once more.

By the way calling Sasha's expression a "constipation face" is demeaning to Sasha, I haven't called anyone a demeaning name.

zippythesqurl2

01-26-2005, 07:02 PM

I didn't call her "constipation face." I said she had the face. There's a difference (and don't try and put words in my mouth, it won't work). I normally equate constipation with pain (thus linking it to the talk you've been having about Michelle.)

At least I'm saying she's her own person and doesn't have to look at Michelle to decide her future. I, personally, think Sasha knows what she's doing and wouldn't ever get her cues from Michelle. But, different strokes, I suppose.

And as far as the "pained face" goed, I could find pictures for every skater and display their own pain faces. Except, maybe not Jenny, or Irina. Maybe Irina, I don't know. Anyway, my whole point is that everyone makes that face.

IceAlisa

01-26-2005, 07:07 PM

Sasha sure looks like she was in pain in that pic. I don't see how examining facial expressions is spiraling down. Facial expressions and emoting are significant and are part of the overall prez.

I understand that some people are moved by emoting that Michelle does during her straightline but to me it's very predictible and happens every time exactly at the same point of the program. So it's not spontaneous IMO. But to each his own.

SashaTheGreat

01-26-2005, 07:46 PM

I didn't call her "constipation face." I said she had the face. There's a difference (and don't try and put words in my mouth, it won't work). I normally equate constipation with pain (thus linking it to the talk you've been having about Michelle.)

At least I'm saying she's her own person and doesn't have to look at Michelle to decide her future. I, personally, think Sasha knows what she's doing and wouldn't ever get her cues from Michelle. But, different strokes, I suppose.

OK, let's try again. Here's what I wrote: "By the way, calling Sasha's expression a "constipation face" is demeaning to Sasha." I never said you called HER a "constipation face," I said -- an expression on her face.

Oh, I see the light now! I, who talk about Sasha's following a trend, popularized by Michelle, am the one who really insult her. But you, with your bathroom trash talk, have Sasha's best interest at heart...

loveskating

01-27-2005, 08:10 AM

Actually, it was during the 2002 Worlds Qualifying round.

No, Kwan landed a 3/3 toe loop in the LP in 1999 at US Natinoals, and then fell on her second lutz...good grief, I have it on tape. Then she went to Worlds and splatted on her 2 axel in the SP and although she won the LP, Maria won with a clean skate because she was first in the SP.

Facial work is nice; G&G and Sale and Peltier talked about how they worked on facial expressions to go with their music, how they worked on EVERYTHING. Any passionate, complete skater will do that work.

What is hurtful to other skaters' fans is the fact that Kwan's fans claim that her facial work is spontaneous and that thus she skates with heart, while claiming that others do not. Bulloks.

What is also hurtful is that they state or imply that everyone has to be just like Kwan to be any good, which is also BULLOKS! Every skater is different, THANK GOD!

attyfan

01-27-2005, 09:06 AM

Just for the record -- Kwan did not win the LP at 1999 Worlds (she had the flu). Maria B won all 3 of her rounds (Michelle and Maria were in different QRs, and each won theirs), fairly and squarely.

azncarrot

01-27-2005, 09:38 AM

No, Kwan landed a 3/3 toe loop in the LP in 1999 at US Natinoals, and then fell on her second lutz...good grief, I have it on tape. Then she went to Worlds and splatted on her 2 axel in the SP and although she won the LP, Maria won with a clean skate because she was first in the SP.I didn't say she DIDN'T land a 3/3 at 1999 Nationals. I was saying that she's landed the 3T/3T before and after that as well. I made a mistake in my first post thinking that you had said last, but 1999 was definitely not the first either.

1995 Skate America (Salome)
1996 Champion Series Final (Salome)
1997 Champion Series Final (Taj Mahal)
1997 Worlds -- Long program(Taj Mahal)
1999 Nationals (Ariane)
1999 Skate America (Red Violin)
2000 Worlds (Red Violin)
2001 Grand Prix Final (Song of the Black Swan with a two footed one in Miraculous Mandarin)
2001 Worlds - Qualifying and Long - (Song of the Black Swan)
2002 Worlds - Qualifying

zippythesqurl2

01-27-2005, 09:49 PM

OK, let's try again. Here's what I wrote: "By the way, calling Sasha's expression a "constipation face" is demeaning to Sasha." I never said you called HER a "constipation face," I said -- an expression on her face.

Oh okay. My bad. Although, calling someone "constipation face," would be pretty funny. (A friend, I mean. I'd never call someone I didn't know a name and it would only be out of love. To get a laugh. Because my friends and I are able to laugh at things)

Oh, I see the light now! I, who talk about Sasha's following a trend, popularized by Michelle, am the one who really insult her. But you, with your bathroom trash talk, have Sasha's best interest at heart...

Well, you are insinuating that Sasha doesn't have a mind of her own. And, then, me, I just posted a picture emphasizing that Michelle's not the only one to make the face. And by the way, I've use "constipation face" before when talking about Michelle's pained faces. Although, maybe we should just call it "Heart on her sleave," like IceAlisa thought up a long time ago. You know, as to not offened you again.
So, Sasha AND Michelle and many other skaters do the hohs (heart on her sleeve) face.

MKFSfan

01-27-2005, 11:39 PM

"Heart on her sleeve"?? I thought that's what Dick said about Michelle, which prompted Peggy to reply,"But she doesn't wear any sleeves!"

SashaTheGreat

01-28-2005, 12:14 AM

Well, you are insinuating that Sasha doesn't have a mind of her own. And, then, me, I just posted a picture emphasizing that Michelle's not the only one to make the face.

Actually, I wasn't insinuating anything about Sasha. I was talking about Michelle, agreeing with the posted article. You were the one to bring up Sasha, going as far as browsing through Sasha's photo gallery in order to find one unflattering shot, which supposedly would've help you to prove your silly point.

I should have known better. Supporting any theory, that argues against glorification of MK's career would have her fans up in arms, attacking Sasha on her very board! Sorry for offending you, Zippy, I simply spoke the truth.

Viktoria

02-01-2005, 03:17 PM

Sports Illustrated rarely publishes anything about female sports, and when they do cover female figure skating or gymnastics, they are sure to print what I have come to call the "crotch shot." Whenever a gymnast is coming over the bars with her legs spread, that is the picture they print. Likewise with figure skaters. When Michelle sort of squatted down (not quite a fall) at her (was it?) second Olympics (when she wore her red costume), I said to my boss, "Just wait. When Sports Illustrated covers this event, that will be the picture of Michelle they print." And so it was--

attyfan

02-01-2005, 03:59 PM

[sarc on] Is it true that the USFSA is bribing SI to put Irina on its cover before Worlds? [sarc off]

smkoepke

02-05-2005, 05:20 PM

Mk isn't "holiding anyone back" if everyone is so much better than her then they would beat her. I love Sasha too but have never understood where the idea that she has more jump content than MK came from? It's fine and dandy to say "she is trying a quad in practice" but bring it to the table when it counts. The same for all her other jumps. MK 95% of the time lands more jumps than Sasha so how is MK's level of jump difficulty lacking in comparison? And no i don't want to hear about what was planned in the program or what she attempted but couldn't do. IF YOU CAN"T DO THE JUMPS THEN QUIT TRYING TO PUT THEM IN THE PROGRAM. and while were on this subject when was the last time sasha even had a 3/3 planned in her program? I am not trying to diss sasha but the idea that MK is holding anyone back with her choice to not always do a 3/3 is as ludicrous as saying that sasha is holding others back by teaching them that they don't have to concentrate and train hard because they can still fall a couple of times in a program and still medal! :rolleyes: And just who are these top level ladies from japan and russia who are landing "routinely" quads and 3/3? I can think of 1 skater to land a quad like a year or two ago. I can think of 3 ladies to land a 3 axel (kimmies shouldn't have been ratified but we'll count it anyway) each once despite the numerous competitions they have been in. 3/3 have been a rarity this year from anyone including Slute, and Shiz hasn't landed solo jumps this year well let alone 3/3. My point is that NO ONE routinely is landing any of these difficult jump combos or a quad, and to intimate that MK is so far below the level of tech difficulty of other ladies is plain ridiculous, when she usually lands a clean 6 triple program and many of the others (regardless of the "grandiose" jumps they have "planned") fail ROUTINELY to do that. The only one who i would put above michelle in jump difficulty is Irina because she is somewhat consistent (usually, I'm hoping EUROS was an aberration), and though she has no flow out on her jumps, she does have a slight edge with her combos even with out a 3/3. The rest is pure conjecture on what a skater has done once in a comp or can do in practice. As for the young ones coming up, it's great that they are trying these jumps, but lets hope they don't blow out hips like Tara did at 15, and i prefer to wait and see how long they "keep" the jump, bodies change, injuries happen and there is a reason why most of the older (past puberty) gals don't do a 3 axel.
Oh and the coach hopping thing is laughable. Mk stayed with Frank for 10 years before switching to what she said herself said was a "for now" interim coach and has now been with Raphael for 2 years with no signs of a problem. Sasha can switch coaches all she likes and it is none of our business. I personally don't think it is the best idea but that's just me.

MKFSfan

02-05-2005, 07:16 PM

Hmm...I was glad that this thread had gone away, but now that it has resurfaced, I'm hoping more negative posts don't arrise.

smkoepke, obviously this thread struck a nerve in you, at times it did with me, too, but I don't think the issue in the article is Michelle VS Sasha, but Michelle VS what could have been had Michelle every single year upped the tech difficulty.

I never get the threads that blast Michelle's jump content, not just on this board. OK, so she's not putting 3/3's in her programs. Before this season, she's been landing all the triples, and has done a variety of 3/2's. In a way. I think that since she is a top skater and has been for so long, people may look to her for guidelines, for lack of better word. In Europe, I bet they look to Irina. Then you get some media writers, and some armchair fans who seem to believe if you can do it in practice, why not throw it in? It's so simple, right?

I think many feel an ideal program is 7 triples with at least one 3/3. Sasha has had 2 7 triple programs (yes, I know one was at a Cheesefest) in the past 2 years. She may not have attempted a 3/3 since she landed her only 3/3 attempt almost 2 years ago. On the other hand, Michelle hasn't attempted a 3/3 or 7 triple program in 3 years. There was speculation she had a 3/3 ready last season, didn't need it for Nationals and then apparently felt it was better to play it safe and medal since she didn't have a shot at Gold at Worlds. She had a 7 triple prgram planned in 2003, but opted for the SFL to spread eagle instead (glad for that!). I believe it's smart planning on both skaters' parts that attribute to these program decisions. For Sasha, she has had a serious back injury that flared up, add to that her inconsistencies. To me, she's better off building up her confidence and program content for next year, when it counts the most. Michelle has been around a long time, she has learned to listen to her body, which is important if she plans to make another run at the Olympics next year, and then she can bring out all her tricks. The selfish fan is me wants to see both land a 3/3 at Worlds and prove all these nay-sayers wrong! But the realistic in me would much rather see a clean, insprired program, and back to the drawing board for next year.

In my opinion, both ladies a setting a great example for future generations. Longetivity counts for something, and it's so important, as we witnessed with Euros, to be well-rounded, not only jump focused, with 7 triples and 3/3 programs.

As for starting a coach hoping-spur of the moment trend, that's just a silly argument. Michelle has seemed to have a plan. While I thought it was not a great idea to go coachless, I respected her decision. I knew she wouldn't be with Scott long, and that was made clear for day one. Sasha only left Nicks and CA for one reason, and had a huge delimma when things fell through with TT. She tried hard to make it work, staying in NY with Robin, but it didn't so now she needs to figure out what's best for her, be it Nicks or someone else. For some reason, I think she'll have a new coach come next year, and I really hope she's able to find one that she can train her best with. But I will not judge her decisions!

But like I said, just my opinon!

smkoepke

02-06-2005, 01:40 AM

it did strike a nerve lol. I am a fan of both sasha and MK and i get "loud" at mkf if sasha is being torn apart unfairly and here if MK is being torn apart by "some" posters (definitely not all :p ). I guess my point is that jumps aren't always the answer. Look at elena sokolova she had jumps for 1 season, where are they now? Irina hasn't been consistent with her 3/3 since 2002. Shizuka had jumps at the end of last season and barely has any now, and I'm sorry guys but Sasha never really "had" a 3/3 or a quad as some like to intimate, (she needs to get her mind focused on a clean 6 triples and work from there) jenny had a 3/3 last season (though inconsistent in her solo jumps) remember the hype around carolina kostner? My point is not to diss these young women, but merely to point out that none of these ladies have more jump content than MK does (95%) of the time and MK has had a 3/3 in many of her performances over the years (though none since 2002). I get irritated when i hear/read uninformed nonsense in supposedly reputable sprting magazines!

zippythesqurl2

02-08-2005, 07:46 PM

Actually, I wasn't insinuating anything about Sasha. I was talking about Michelle, agreeing with the posted article. You were the one to bring up Sasha, going as far as browsing through Sasha's photo gallery in order to find one unflattering shot, which supposedly would've help you to prove your silly point.
I didn't have to search the gallery. I'm a Sasha fan and know the pictures that are on the websight. I was pointing out a fact that Michelle wasn't the only one to grimace while skating. And she's not. Is that clear? There really isn't a 'silly point.' Nice way to try and talk down to someone, by the way.

I was also pointing out your flaws in blaming MK for the "influx of skaters switching coaches," which there really isn't any, but who cares. You clearly aren't going to argue points and just dance around statements. Nice.

I should have known better. Supporting any theory, that argues against glorification of MK's career would have her fans up in arms, attacking Sasha on her very board! Sorry for offending you, Zippy, I simply spoke the truth.

You didn't offened me. I don't like people who promote things that aren't true. You did just that. And, I don't care for the glorification of MK. Had you said, say, " MK's skating is ugly," not a big deal. But you said that Michelle was the cause of skaters switching coaches, and that's not fair in any stretch of the word. All you did was latch onto a theory to deflect from Sasha not realizing that it was dimunitive to sasha in the process.

Also, I'm sorry if I offended you. I can come off quite nasty and for that, I'm sorry.

Clarabella

02-08-2005, 09:00 PM

sasha is the one who is driving our little skating ladies to show more stretch, a more elegant line, and different movements than the standard sit spin, spiral, layback, lutz (and they are trying to land a triple lutz, not double it like mk did.).

hmm this is a bit confusing... mk was one of the skaters that made it neccessary to do the second triple lutz in the long program.

and while she isn't really pushing the envelope in the techniqual department these days, other than doing clean programs, which i admit are a little watered down, you have to remember than in her younger days, she was considered quite the jumping bean.....

zippythesqurl2

02-08-2005, 10:02 PM

Not to mention that it was MK's spiral that made Tara work on hers.

adrianchew

02-08-2005, 11:48 PM

Not to mention that it was MK's spiral that made Tara work on hers.

Actually Nicole Bobek started that chain - she made MK work on MK's spiral back before Tara.

SashaTheGreat

02-09-2005, 01:16 AM

I didn't have to search the gallery. I'm a Sasha fan and know the pictures that are on the websight. I was pointing out a fact that Michelle wasn't the only one to grimace while skating.

you said that Michelle was the cause of skaters switching coaches, and that's not fair in any stretch of the word. All you did was latch onto a theory to deflect from Sasha not realizing that it was dimunitive to sasha in the process.

There's no need to post an unattractive picture of Sasha to prove that it's possible to take a bad snap shot of any skater. I think the point others tried to make, that Michelle makes the same facial expression, when she does her spiral, just so predictable.

Mr. Nicks first spoke about Michelle popularizing frequent coaching changes, and I happen to agree with him. With her track record she is an undisputed leader on the US team, whatever moves she does would be tired by others, for better or worse. That's how things usually work, and it's not diminishing to Sasha, nor to anyone else, to say that they're trying to follow in MK's footsteps, either by trying to work with a different trainer, or abstaining from GP events, in order to "concentrate" on more important competitions, etc.

By the way, somehow I see no objections from overzealous MK fans, when she's credited with good things, like inspiring skaters to go for longer amateur careers. Do you believe Sasha is putting herself down, when she says, that looking at Michelle she herself hopes to skate for a few more years? Probably not.

Clarabella

02-09-2005, 02:58 AM

[QUOTE=SashaTheGreat]40534751 I think the point others tried to make, that Michelle makes the same facial expression, when she does her spiral, just so predictable.
QUOTE]

what, smiling????

actually, i do remember a certain perfomance from 2003 nationals ( think) during her short program where she didnt smile during her spiral.. infact, mr button actually commented on her stern expression, saying somthing "oooh you dont want to mess with her" or something like that haha, good old uncle dick haha

attyfan

02-09-2005, 08:24 AM

I wish the writer had checked his history. Both Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill had other coaches before they switched to Carlo Fassi. Paul Wylie switched coaches; so did Yags.

zippythesqurl2

02-09-2005, 10:41 AM

Actually Nicole Bobek started that chain - she made MK work on MK's spiral back before Tara.

Right. You're right.

Mr. Nicks first spoke about Michelle popularizing frequent coaching changes, and I happen to agree with him. With her track record she is an undisputed leader on the US team, whatever moves she does would be tired by others, for better or worse. That's how things usually work, and it's not diminishing to Sasha, nor to anyone else, to say that they're trying to follow in MK's footsteps, either by trying to work with a different trainer, or abstaining from GP events, in order to "concentrate" on more important competitions, etc.
Mr. Nicks gave you a sound bite, you ran with it.
Okay, you're clearly not a skater. We're going in circles now. Michelle didn't start the chain of coach hopping. If anything a skater should look at the fact that she skated her best when she had been under the same coach for, what, 12 years? It's what the critism of Tara actually was for awhile. How she had been with three coaches by 15 and Michelle had been with one.

Changing coaches isn't like abstaining from the GP circuit (and MK is STILL the only one doing that, (besides Plushy, but we all know his reasons) so... that argument doesn't hold up. Sasha did it this year, but she had an injured back). So, where's your proof that skaters are switching for the reason that MK is? I've given reasons as to why they aren't, but all you can come up with is, "Mr. Knicks said it."

By the way, somehow I see no objections from overzealous MK fans, when she's credited with good things, like inspiring skaters to go for longer amateur careers.
Would like people to put MK down for no apparent reason?

Do you believe Sasha is putting herself down, when she says, that looking at Michelle she herself hopes to skate for a few more years? Probably not.

No, because Sasha wanting to skate longer and seeing that it can be done through Michelle's exampe is different that, say, "Michelle switched coaches, so I should do that too."

There's no need to post an unattractive picture of Sasha to prove that it's possible to take a bad snap shot of any skater. I think the point others tried to make, that Michelle makes the same facial expression, when she does her spiral, just so predictable.

Yes, there was a need. The "facial epression" was a disscusion about making a pained face. Besides, Sasha does the "deer in the headlights" face at the start of almost every program. If you're going to be nitpicky about one skater, don't be hypocritical. And anyway, it's just petty.
All of this. Me, you, the argument. I just wish you wouldn't be so stubburn and realize that it wasn't MK who started the trend. As I've proven from provindg info about skaters who switched coaches more than MK BEFORE she switched even once.

Dilng

02-09-2005, 01:22 PM

MK breaks out the pained look during the straightline footwork. Something like this:
http://www.usolympicteam.com/photo_gallery/michellekwan/photo01.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol: That is so true! When Michelle was skating with Frank and Lori Nicholes, I never saw her emote. There was a true feeling in her skating. In fact one of my very favorite programs was the "Song of the Black Swan". In that program she has genuine emotion in her skating. She uses her arms beautiful and the way that she uses her head was wonderful. She was really beautiful in that program. However, since she has left Frank and Lori her musicality and her love of skating seem to be lacking in her programs. She looks fake when she is skating. If you don't agree, go back and look at some of her old programs and then look at her programs from the 2002 Olympics on -- she is a different skater, and it's not an improvement.

SashaTheGreat

02-09-2005, 05:02 PM

"Mr. Nicks gave you a sound bite, you ran with it.
Okay, you're clearly not a skater. We're going in circles now. Michelle didn't start the chain of coach hopping."

Actually, it's not only Mr. Nicks, who's on record of saying that. We had an article posted here, originally printed by Washington Post (I believe), where the author also analyzed MK's career moves, and brought up the fact that while going from coach to coach (when things appear not to go smoothly) did not seem to affect her successful run, the author (who's name, unfortunately I cannot recall) wrote along the lines, that whatever worked for Kwan, did not seem to benefit other skaters (like Sasha, or Tim, or Mike), who've tried to follow up in her footsteps, and he/she concluded: "kids, do not try this at home."

"Changing coaches isn't like abstaining from the GP circuit (and MK is STILL the only one doing that, (besides Plushy, but we all know his reasons) so... that argument doesn't hold up."

I believe I already pointed out, that Michelle did not invent the trend, but she definitely POPULARIZED it, since she's looked upon as a leader. Tara may have changed coaches earlier in her career, but she was with Mr. Callaghan during her most successful years, and Nicole Bobek hardly had as much influence, as Michelle. If you stubbornly refuse to accept the logic of the argument -- fine, it's up to you. I have laid out all facts to conceder, but cannot prove something to you, as if it was a mathematical equation. So, again, if you prefer to tip toe in circles around these facts, because they upset you, as MK's fan -- it is your choice. (One thing though, how is it clear to you that I'm not a skater? Why does it even matter? Just another petty argument to raise?)

Michelle is still the only one who's open about her not being interested in GP's, but we see more and more skaters, (and not only Plush), who'd drop out without thinking twice (Tim, Johnny), saying they'd rather take it easy and prepare for Nationals and Worlds (bigger fish to fry, so to speak). This growing trend have recently brought a wrath of Speedy, who've accused USFSA of saving our top skater for big competitions, never mind that a slew of skaters have claimed injuries, the trend (supported by open put down by Kwan) sure looks suspicious to the outsiders.

"No, because Sasha wanting to skate longer and seeing that it can be done through Michelle's exampe is different that, say, "Michelle switched coaches, so I should do that too."

No, it's exactly the same, but the former would be following a positive example, set by Michelle, the latter would be emulating the negative one. Saying that Michelle's career choices is beyond criticism is a mere hypocrisy.

[/QUOTE]

zippythesqurl2

02-09-2005, 07:21 PM

Alright. You're right!

Friends?

MKFSfan

02-09-2005, 07:26 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol: That is so true! When Michelle was skating with Frank and Lori Nicholes, I never saw her emote. There was a true feeling in her skating. In fact one of my very favorite programs was the "Song of the Black Swan". In that program she has genuine emotion in her skating. She uses her arms beautiful and the way that she uses her head was wonderful. She was really beautiful in that program. However, since she has left Frank and Lori her musicality and her love of skating seem to be lacking in her programs. She looks fake when she is skating. If you don't agree, go back and look at some of her old programs and then look at her programs from the 2002 Olympics on -- she is a different skater, and it's not an improvement.

She definately did emote! Emote is to show emotion, right? Like through acting, your expressions and gestures help sell your performance. Every artist or performer emotes. If they didn't they would have no expressions, no show of feelings. What I find funny is since the 2002 Olympics, the main differences I see in Michelle's skating is she has more freedom and more joy. I thought she showed a renewed feeling of love for skating with Aranjuez, that is what I got out of that program. You can argue all you want about the choreo being simpler, or the program lacking some of the transitions she once had, but I still see some of her strengths that's she's always had in her basic skating, beautiful spirals. Now her jumps are bigger and her skating is stronger. I've always felt she's been able to sell a program, and that is emoting, performing. I'm sure skaters, just like actors, draw on personal incidents to convey a specific emotion, but they are still acting. That, to me, is how I see "Aranjuez" and "TFB" and "Tosca" and now "Spartacus". She hasn't quite sold me on "Bolero", I hope that happens at Worlds, just like Worlds was when I really got "Song of the Black Swan" and "The Red Violin". Actually, when I watched Michelle's performances from all her Nationals, I love where she has come to, she's evolved into a different skater so many times over the years, yet in some ways she's still the same skater who stole my heart way back in 1994 with "East of Eden". I believe "Tosca" at Nationals last year would have beaten "Salome", but not "Lyra".

At the same time, I agree with parts of what you said as far as she was a different skater under Frank and Lori, her programs then would still be competitive with the top skates today. But she's also a mature young lady now, no longer a kid, then a teen. And her skating shows that as well.

I'm one who's enjoying the journey!

MKFSfan

02-09-2005, 07:48 PM

I'm with Zippy...I don't want to cause any animosity or fight over this topic to the death, but just a few thoughts...

I do agree somewhat about the whole GPS thing, how other skaters are taking her lead and not participating. But I feel this less Michelle's fault and more the responsibility of the ISU for not laying down rules before, like you have to do GPS to do Worlds. If Speedy/ISU changes the rules, then Michelle and others will have to obide by them. The selfish fan in me wants Michelle in every competition, but I realize she knows what's best for her body and her career.

No matter what the media or Nicks says, I just don't get how Michelle popularized coach changing to the skating world, especially if it's based on "Michelle switched coaches when thing looked bad". When you look at it, Michelle's low moments with Frank happened in 1996-1997 and after Worlds 1998-Worlds 2000, yet she was still won several competitions and came out with memorable skates (such as winning 1997 Worlds LP, 1998 Nationals, her silver at the Olympics, 2000-01 Worlds) even though she didn't seem happy towards the end. I won't attempt to explain away the coachless decision. (If there are more skaters going coachless, then I won't argue there)Then with Scott's guidence, not a serious coaching relationship, more a friend/advisor deal, as both made quite clear, she had a successful 2003. After having boot problems in the fall, she turned to Rafael fo help, which led to him becoming her official coach, which I think has been a very good thing for Michelle's skating.

Very different circumstances than, say, Sasha, who when she switched to TT in the 1st place made several people, and me go,"Huh?". I would've understood if she went to someone more tech. specialized, but TT is an artistic coach. On the other hand, I figured her reputation and successes on the World level would be great for Sasha. We all know what follows, she left TT after poor showings and unhappiness from her mom, then the fall disasters and apparent unhappiness. Her changes were more apparently related to bad situations, and moving to make things better for herself and her skating. But I would never say Sasha's coaching decisions were based on running from bad times or hoping for a quick fix to her problems.

But can I ask-why does it matter? Do any of you think poorly of any skaters, or of Michelle or Sasha, for switching? I definately do not. I think they invest enough time, emotions, money and make so many sacrifices that they deserve to find out where they are truly happy and most successful. Those skaters who stay with one for so long, all I have to say is they are very lucky.

smkoepke

02-25-2005, 12:25 PM

but who else besides Michelle is skipping the GP events without having an injury as their excuse? I can't think of anyone so how is she "popularizing" skipping GP events? Also skaters like Nikodinov, Goebel, Weiss, Lipinski, BOBEK, and yes Sasha are the ones that have made coach hopping into a sport of its own. In any case if any of these people want to switch coaches every 3 months it's nobodys business but their own. :confused:

attyfan

02-25-2005, 12:34 PM

[QUOTE=smkoepke]but who else besides Michelle is skipping the GP events without having an injury as their excuse? /QUOTE]

According to my tape of Marshall's, Plushy withdrew from two of his three GP events, not because he was ill or injured on the date of the competition, but because his illness over the summer delayed his preparation on his new programs. Furthermore, the ISU letter slamming federations for not producing their "big names" for the GP was issued after Michelle skipped for the third year, but within two weeks after the ISU found out that Plushy was scheduled to do a show on the same night as the NHK trophy (one of the GP events that Plushy withdrew from), and, he had skated his new program in competitions in Russia.

loveskating

02-25-2005, 05:00 PM

MKFSfan

02-26-2005, 07:38 PM

[QUOTE=attyfan]

And so it is as many of us have predicted...if one elite skater is allowed to get away with a special arrangement then others will demand the same...and thus the GP Series as a whole will be subject to destruction.

And so it is up to the ISU to make GP events mandatory if that's how they feel. What we have seen is Michelle and Plushy opted out saying they perfer to train/compete at their own pace, right? And a couple skaters chose not to take on a 3rd assignment. As it is right now, it's up to the skaters, big names or not, to determine how they are going to approach their seasons, and if skaters like Michelle feel they benefit from a selective schedule, or feel they aren't quite ready yet like Plushy, they shouldn't be punished for choosing a different route. I think somewhere pages earlier, someone said the USFSA has skaters under contract to appear at certain cheesefests, but the ISU has not made this neccessary or else. Yet. I bet we'll see changes this summer and that the GPS will be mandatory for Olympics and Worlds participation. BUT until then, I believe ISU is the only one to blame for the so-called lack of interest in the GPS. The reason I say "so-called" is because fans of certain skaters must have been thrilled when their skater was able to headline and generate a lot of press at certain events without an expected big namer.

attyfan

02-26-2005, 09:16 PM

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that the opt-outs are dooming the GP? Plushy skipped it this year because of a preceding illness; Sasha has a doctor's note. The participation of those two generated enough interest that the ISU didn't make it mandatory simply because Kwan wasn't participating -- and the fact that they only did not participate because of health related issues indicates to me that they will compete next year if they are able to do so. Also, the ISU has to sanction the cheesefests, so if it really thought things like Marshall's were detracting from the GP series, it could have refused to approve the event.

ZealousDreamer1

03-01-2005, 04:27 PM

loveskating

03-03-2005, 12:18 PM

[QUOTE=loveskating]

And so it is up to the ISU to make GP events mandatory if that's how they feel. What we have seen is Michelle and Plushy opted out saying they perfer to train/compete at their own pace, right? And a couple skaters chose not to take on a 3rd assignment. As it is right now, it's up to the skaters, big names or not, to determine how they are going to approach their seasons, and if skaters like Michelle feel they benefit from a selective schedule, or feel they aren't quite ready yet like Plushy, they shouldn't be punished for choosing a different route. I think somewhere pages earlier, someone said the USFSA has skaters under contract to appear at certain cheesefests, but the ISU has not made this neccessary or else. Yet. I bet we'll see changes this summer and that the GPS will be mandatory for Olympics and Worlds participation. BUT until then, I believe ISU is the only one to blame for the so-called lack of interest in the GPS. The reason I say "so-called" is because fans of certain skaters must have been thrilled when their skater was able to headline and generate a lot of press at certain events without an expected big namer.

Your reasoning is so strange to me...for instance, Elayne Zayak used to go out there and do all those 3/3 toe loops...so the Zayak rule was made to prevent the downgrading of skating in allowing a skater to do their easiest jump combo repeatedly and not do the other jumps! You seem to be saying that what Zayak was doing was alright, cool, until there was a rule against it, when in fact, most rules are made to PREVENT DAMAGING BEHAVIOR that has already occurred.

Kwan's behavior has been elitist, arrogant, and extremely damaging to the GP Series, which is why there should be an ISU rule against it.

I don't favor retroactive rules.

SkateFan

03-03-2005, 07:22 PM

I haven't read the article, but from what I hear it sounds like the author doesn't know what he is talking about. Kimmie Meissner outjumped Michelle and Sasha by landing a 3axel at nationals, yet who were on the top 2 steps of the podium. Being able to express your emotions, and the music by being artistic, while at the same time attempting very athletically demanding maneuvers is what the sport of figure skating is all about. Skating is NOT just about jumps...this author doensn't seem to understand that. IMHO Michelle has upped the anti in the National and International fields.

the author is not suggesting that kimmie was the best that night at nationals. the author was simply saying that 1. the triple axel and other difficult jumps are making their way into the senior ranks. 2. a young skater in their first senior nationals performed a jump that even the top skaters have not landed. 3. kimmie meissner has dominated nationals in the novice and junior levels and now she is working her way up as a senior 3. kimmie is not completely lacking in her artistry. she shows a great effort. while some feel she is not as good as michelle kwan, she is still developing, while MK seems to have hit a plateau in her skating as of a few years ago. MK shows no signs of making significant leaps in artistic or athletic ability any time soon. so basically the author was saying that the level of skating has also hit somewhat of a plateau cause the dominating lady has, but other promising skaters (ie kimmie) are coming up, so MK wil either need to improve or risk young skaters. honestly, i would rather watch kimmie than mk anyday because to me, all of michelle's programs seem the same and have many of the same elements. there hasnt been much change, and after years, honestly, im tired of it. it doesnt keep my interest. she needs to change it up a bit because it all seems the same, from the type of music to the costumes to the faces she makes (a lot of times it kinda looks like she's angry or in pain when she does that spiral. i'd rather see a smile.).

MKFSfan

03-03-2005, 07:49 PM

I see no similarities between Elaine Zyack and her multiple 3 toes and Michelle not doing the GPS. Sure, until the Zyack rule went into effect, Elaine was not breaking any rules, so if all she could do were 3 toes, so be it. Why is my reasoning "strange"? Yes, it had a negative effect on Elaine. If competing has a negative effect on Michelle's performance at Nationals or Worlds, well, that would suck. Don't forget, skaters in the past did not have such a full schedule either, and they were not landing triples, or taking quite as much pounding on their bodies as skaters today do. The only point I have been consistently trying to make is that noone is forced to compete in the GPS, as of right now. I don't know why Michelle does not want to do the GPS. Maybe it's because she feels it's better for her physical condition. Maybe she doesn't like to travel. Maybe it's both. She has to do the Cheesfests, so I would think if the GPS was mandatory for Worlds, she'd have to do that or retire. As a fan, I want to see Michelle compete every single time out! But I also realize that she is not 17 anymore and perhaps competing takes more toll on her, therefore she focuses on the competitions that are more important to her.

Why does it matter? Since you dispise her skating so much, why not just be happy you don't have to watch her in the GPS? Michelle not skating in the GPS does not have to damper the whole series. There has been much to chat about and watch and develop new interests in upcoming stars, so I think that's a good thing for skating. TV ratings for FS has been in a decline, with or without Michelle. Most people only watch it during the Olympics anyway. Reagrdless, I don't think any skater "owes" their federation anything. Well, probably only in America that is so!

SkateFan

03-04-2005, 11:28 AM

MKFSfan

03-04-2005, 06:08 PM

the point is that Michelle skips out on the grand prix. its not fair to the skaters who put out all season long. they are out there from october to april. its not fair that michelle casually shows up to nationals and worlds and still manages to win with the same old program every year. if every skater did that, what would the sport come to? seriously, think about it. if we only had like 2 events and the cheesefests each year, it would be crazy.

I'm still not sure why it isn't fair. These other skaters are earning money, if they do well, on the GP circuit, gaining exposure and experience. If they are unable to beat Michelle at Nationals or Worlds, that's why it is a sport. In a way, the same could be said for those who take a "bye" by competing at an ISU event and not have to qualify for Nationals through sectionals/regionals.

Listen, I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I agree it makes more sense to make the GPS mandatory, especially since FS seems to be in danger of losing sponsors, media exposure, etc. and insisting on all skaters to participate ensures more interests (when the top billing skaters appear). I was disappointed when Michelle dropped out this year, and admittedly would not have watched any of the GP events again this season had I not gotten TiVo. But I don't think it's unfair, or gives Michelle an advantage, quite the contrary-she's at a disadvantage, but that's a whole other discussion!

What I disagree with right now is that Michelle is doing anything wrong. She basically told USFSA after SLC if she is to continue, she needs to change things to keep on going. If anyone has a problem now, well, those in power need to address those issues, not make empty threats. I also disagree that Michelle "casually" shows up-no elite athlete sits on their laurels until the week before and starts training, she puts in her time. I also don't think she wins with "same old programs" but that's just me, and my preference is different than yours-which is OK! Seriously. No fighting here. :D

It seems to me the argument against Michelle has 2-sides: the ISU side is for financial purposes-no Michelle (and other top skaters), no revenue. The others are arguing because they just love to crucify Michelle for any controversial decision she makes, and hate that she can still win.

loveskating

03-04-2005, 08:20 PM

[QUOTE=MKFSfan]What I disagree with right now is that Michelle is doing anything wrong. She basically told USFSA after SLC if she is to continue, she needs to change things to keep on going. If anyone has a problem now, well, those in power need to address those issues, not make empty threats. I also disagree that Michelle "casually" shows up-no elite athlete sits on their laurels until the week before and starts training, she puts in her time. I also don't think she wins with "same old programs" but that's just me, and my preference is different than yours-which is OK! Seriously. No fighting here. :D [QUOTE]

Behavior can be wrong, morally wrong, before there is a rule or law against it...the fact is that most law or rules are made precisely because some kind of behavior was found over time to be very damaging to OTHERS.

MK trains, obviously -- but she does not subject herself to the physical and emotional demands of seasonal competition and the exhaustion of world travel...then she does waltz in and take the most important competitions... some of us feel because she is being held up since her level of difficulty and quality is not that high relatively speaking.

zippythesqurl2

03-05-2005, 10:07 PM

Behavior can be wrong, morally wrong, before there is a rule or law against it

Not getting into the big argument (honestly, how many times can we have the same. exact. disscusion.?) But, morals only defined by a few people should not and will not be held by the majority until it is passed into law. Just saying.
(Not that I agree with or disagree with anything being said.)

MKFSfan

03-06-2005, 07:27 PM

SkateFan

03-06-2005, 08:45 PM

"Morally wrong"??? Hm...that is harsh! I consider something "morally wrong" when it causes unneccessary, even illegal, harm to a person, or group of people. Like, say, I consider any parent or coach who allows a young skater to obsessively practice jumps over and over and over to the point they blow out their hip or have other serious, career ending injuries "morally wrong". I consider taking out the competition with a wack on the knee "morally wrong". But when one person decides limiting their competitive career is better for their health, and neccessary to remain injury free, well, I don't consider that "morally wrong". But that's just me!

If the argument was that Michelle is being a poor sportsman, or better yet-a poor spokesmodel for USFS, even though I would not agree, I can see the point. Michelle has been the leading lady skater for a long time now and is seen as an ambasador of sorts for the US. One of her most respectable characteristics is being a good role model for up and coming skaters, and any athete. I can see how her skipping the GPS could be a negative thing in this aspect because some of these young athletes might percieve what she's doing as being easier to take shortcuts, especially before they put in their time, and therefore developing questionable work ethics.

I stand by my belief that Michelle does not owe anyone, the ISU, USFSA or her fans, more competitions, especially if that means compromising her physical well-being. Once (and if) the rules are adjusted and the skaters HAVE to participate in GPS to be eligible for Worlds, then yes, trying to skip out of the GPS would be wrong, maybe even morally wrong!

I agree we do keep rehashing this discussion. I'm not trying to change your perspective, I just get defensive when someone insults Michelle or feels she owes us more. I think I meet you 1/2 way on this topic though!

just to state my opinion on this.... i dont think michelle is a poor spokesmodel for USFSA.... i was a fan of michelle's back when but eventually i just stopped watching her... mostly around like 2002 because after that, when she stayed in and started only doing select things... like for the grand prix 2003-2004 she didnt do it.. i just thought "if she wants to compete still, but she only wants to do a few, it's not really fair". i can see if you dont agree, but that's how i feel.. if you compete, it should be like an all or nothing type of deal. not saying there should be any law for or against it or whatever because i never really thought of the pros and cons of that too deeply... i just think that michelle has been in long enough... she has enough world and national gold (and other color) medals. i feel that it is time to allow new stars to shine and michelle has dominated for long enough... she has made a name for herself. i think i would have appreciated her more if she hadnt stayed in so long for just nationals and worlds now at this point. i mean, up until 2002-2003 i was a michelle fan... not the biggest, and she wasnt my favorite, but sure, i would cheer for her. she kind of ruined it for me by over-dominating... i dont really know how to explain it in a way that wont make the big MK fans not be offended, but i think i would have been a big fan of her more so if she would have stayed in all the way or just left, ya know??
also, i have met michelle 3 times. in april of 2002, i was very excited, in fact she was one of like the top 5 skaters i was most excited about meeting then. it was my first time ever meeting skaters. when michelle walked by, most people had already met her, but i was a little late so i asked for her autograph anyway, not thinking she would mind. well, apparantly she signed autographs a little earlier and when i asked, she signed it but wouldnt talk or anything, i said thank you and it was nice to meet her....she didnt smile, wouldnt look at me, didnt even say hi or bye... i know she was probably tired but i was 15 and sooo happy to see her... the kid next to me wanted a pic with her so i had his camera and he said "if we see michelle will you please take a pic of me wiht her?" so i said yes. well he asked her if he could have a pic and she didnt answer but she stood next to him and kinda looked up but when i went to take the pic she like, turned her head and walked away. never said a word. it kind of upset me because that kinda made me lose a tiny bit of respect for her... not a whole lot, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. then in 2003 shae-lynn bourne used my marker to autograph for like 2 or 3 people next to me because they didnt have a marker and neither did she. i asked michelle "oh michelle, could you please wait because i would really like to have an autograph and a picture with you!" and she didnt say yes or no, but she stood there which was nice of her to wait a few seconds instead of just leaving but i told her i liked the program and such and she just doesnt really talk. now, when i met her in 2004 she was nicer. i had a pic from the year before and she did ask where it was from and autographed it and smiled and was happier. that made me feel like she regained herself from the past 2 years... but i don't know... just wanted to share that. i mean, she isnt a BAD person, i just really think that she needs to allow younger skaters to make it big...

MKFSfan

03-07-2005, 10:29 AM

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion and all that, so that is fine if that is the way you feel. I'm not going to argue or try to change your opinion. I just hate reading things like "she SHOULD retire...or...she's morally wrong!" I guess I come from a different perspective and the fact Michelle doesn't want to do the GPS does not bother me. The fact she has dominated the sport for as long as she has makes me happy and more depressed thinking about the day she steps into the competitive scene for the very last time. I just feel any athlete can stay in the sport as long. I'm used to hearing all the Michelle should move over, Michelle should do the GPS, Michelle should do this or that. And I think it's silly. I'm also a Yankee fan and you get the whole,"Damn Yankees...the have a huge payroll ...get all the players they want...they always win!" which makes me :rolleyes:

On another note-Tiger Woods just regained his #1 rank, maybe he needs to retire too??? :p kidding, kidding...

PS...that sucks you met Michelle on a presumably lousy day! I only officially "met" her twice, once back in 1998, and she was so cute, waited for Tara to greet and sign for the fans first before she'd follow, even though at that time, people were calling for Michelle more. The second time was last year, and she was so friendly, happy, while a number of other skaters just breezed on by, signed a few autographs and barely acknowledged us, it was cold and late, but Michelle was the most receptive, so was Timmy, actually. I didn't take offense, though!