USFSA Article on the ladies SP

[danibellerika]

http://www.usfsa.org/event_story.asp?id=28530

I think that this one is MUCH better. The first one we read had an obvious bias :rolleyes: . Sasha's program sounds better already from this one. The ladies also talk about Angela.

[SashaTarafan]

Great article. Thanks Dani.

[amidala]

"I better snag all the sixes I can get"-Michelle Kwan

[Wyliefan]

I like the Nicks quote: “One thing changed. I was an old man and she was a young girl. I'm still an old man and she's a young lady.”

[IceAlisa]

Oh so Michelle skates to win too...who knew...
I absolutely LOOOVE the new Vera Wang. It's simply stunning. So much class and beauty, looks perfect on MK and goes well with the program with the Roman theme. I am not crazy about Sasha's costume, but that's business as usual.

I am glad Sasha is satisfied with her placement. I am not hoping for a title, just for a good free skate.

[Helen]

"I better snag all the sixes I can get"-Michelle Kwan

Imagine if Sasha had said this? I mean they're already getting on her and saying she just wants to win? Hello? Who doesn't at that level of comp?

[Goldenpromise21]

Sasha doesnt have the clout to say that. Michelle has DOMINATED the 6.0's for the last ten years...a comment like that would be appropriate for her, not Sasha. Sasha has only a handful of 6's, while Michelle Kwan owns the record...

[loveskating]

Imagine if Sasha had said this? I mean they're already getting on her and saying she just wants to win? Hello? Who doesn't at that level of comp?

What is new? Its been open season on Sasha from the beginning...face it, its organized, its political, its got power in the USFSA behind it.

Goldenpromise said: "Sasha doesnt have the clout to say that. Michelle has DOMINATED the 6.0's for the last ten years...a comment like that would be appropriate for her, not Sasha. Sasha has only a handful of 6's, while Michelle Kwan owns the record..."

Most of us have one standard of behavior for ourselves and everyone else, things we simply would not do. Most of us believe that having achieved something in a given sphere, say skating, does not entitle us to any different criteria or standards of judgment than anyone else. to the contrary, most of us believe that successful people need to give something back, because without the normal, every day people, they would be NOTHING.

SHeesh, my brother invented something which saves the shipping industry and the naval military BILLIONS of dollars a decade, and he did it for LOVE OF THE PEOPLE, he did not get a DIME or any fame or anything from it, so this junk makes me frigging sick. Entitled? Hardly!

[Helen]

What is new? Its been open season on Sasha from the beginning...face it, its organized, its political, its got power in the USFSA behind it.

The way I see it is Kwan can do no wrong or say no wrong. She really has her PR in and with Sasha, it's really different, esp. this season. BUt then this is probably she is the only other skater in the US who can beat Kwan. Anyone that ever come up and can really challenge her aoutomatically gets the "bad guy" label. Remember Tara? The media didn't give that girl any breaks. This is just my feeling.

[Wyliefan]

I don't see how that was such an awful thing for Michelle to say. Of course she loves to get 6.0s and would like more. Who wouldn't?

[adrianchew]

Sasha doesnt have the clout to say that. Michelle has DOMINATED the 6.0's for the last ten years...a comment like that would be appropriate for her, not Sasha. Sasha has only a handful of 6's, while Michelle Kwan owns the record...

The USFSA cheapens 6.0s so much that all of Kwan's and anyone else's are meaningless... no way that Kwan's program would have gotten that at Worlds under a 6.0 system - at best maybe a 5.8, though given the lack of connecting elements, and so forth, a 5.6/5.7 at best from a really good judge.

She would be deducted in her SP too for the lack of footwork really going into the 3-flip, but of course that didn't happen, and also for the flutz too.

Under COP - she would have been easily behind Sasha and possible some other skaters too... a very simple combo spin from many years ago. About the only notable thing she did differently is the stars/butterfly/sitspin instead of a flying camel or deathdrop. It was beyond that, a crossover galore, and so empty beyond the elements... stroke, stroke, stroke, jump, spin, jump, spin - one could fall asleep from it. Not to mention failing to interpret the music too - which is simply why 6.0s are so totally underserved in this particular instance.

Too bad - the USFSA seems set to give her the title already. It would take a major catastrophe of a freeskate from her to prevent that from happening, no matter how good the other skaters skate, or what additional elements and difficulty they might have in their programs. Its likely Kwan will win the title this year without even having a 3-loop. How sad indeed.

[Goldenpromise21]

I hate to say what you all don't want to hear, but I am going to play a little devils advocate here. I think Sasha is a fabulous skater. I wish she would get her act together and skate the way she is able.

But a lot of the criticism that Sasha has received is deserved, and a lot of the praise that Michelle Kwan has received is deserved. Sasha has made mistakes in how she has structured her skating in the past few years. she admits to making mistakes. I have met Sasha, and spent an afternoon with her, and she seemed like a really cool kid. However, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss rumors that she is impatient and stubborn. When two of the three coaches she’s been with in the past two years have made negative comments after working with her, it’s probably not untrue. This isn’t an attack on her as a person, this is a comment on her personality. We all have our flaws.

Michelle Kwan, on the other hand, has paid her dues. She has had ups and downs, and has an unparalleled longevity. She too has her flaws, but she is a "media darling" for a reason. She knows how to work PR, she's been doing it for years. For every “questionable” comment that Michelle Kwan says, such as “I better snag all the 6s I can get,” she has made 20 tactful, graceful comments, especially in the face of adversity.

While Tara and Sasha certainly are not treated as fondly in the media’s eyes, why should they be?! Sasha has blown numerous opportunities, and isn’t consistent. That’s not an attack on Sasha, that’s a fact. Tara and her family were self centered, and did infuriate the USFSA. I routed for Tara in 1998, but looking back, I don't respect all the decisions she made. Sasha and Tara are AMAZING skaters, probably better then Michelle Kwan as far as overall raw talent. Yet comparing either to Michelle is stupid. Michelle is in another realm. She's just been that good for that long.

So If Michelle wins on Saturday night, it might just be that she deserves to. There is a good chance she will skate clean, and Sasha won’t, and I say that just because it has happened time and time again. It might be that they both are clean, and Michelle just squeaks by. And yes, the USFSA might favor her (why wouldn’t they, do you know how much notoriety Michelle Kwan has brought to the sport?), and the judges might giver her 6’s (there is a lot more to the second mark then just musicality- like edge quality, overall speed, presence) but bottom line is that neither of those are undeserved. Michelle Kwan is a phenominal skater. While we may all favor Sasha’s skating style, it’s nieve to not recognize Kwan’s talent and place in the sport. It's also nieve to think that judges don't like Sasha, and don't favor her at times. Take a look at the Dec. Fluff compeition. I love Sasha, but those marks were a gift!

Sasha’s got what it takes, and I really hope that the change to Mr Nicks puts her back on track. I think she’s phenomenal, and can’t wait to see her skate on Saturday. But if she wins a silver medal at the championships, I’ll be proud of her acomplishments, as well as Michelle's.

Sorry this is long. I had a little venting to do. I don’t like when ppl beat on Sasha at MKF, and I don’t like Kwan bashing here. They are two very different, talented skaters. Lets just leave it at that.

[SashaTheGreat]

Goldenpromise21, great post! I'd like to make another point, first of all, I think Michelle was joking, second, I don't think if Sasha would make a similar comment, it'll be somehow inappropriate. It's a humorous comment, for goodness sake!

[Wyliefan]

That was a good post, Goldenpromise, and I agree with a lot of it. But though I like Michelle's skating and always have, I'm still one of those who gets frustrated that her programs have been so lacking in innovation in recent years. I'm hoping that CoP will do her some good in that regard.

[adrianchew]

... but bottom line is that neither of those are undeserved. Michelle Kwan is a phenominal skater.

That's where you have it wrong. She is a very ultra consistent skater, but she doesn't have the difficulty of some other skaters or the ability to do some more difficult elements. She's never done a Biellmann spin, or donut spin for example.

To be phenominal - you have to bring something different onto the ice, that's really difficult, skating-wise. Its not about favoring styles - there are some of us that can differentiate better between difficulty in skating - remember, we're talking competitive figure skating, not ice-acting. And many of those who can discern the subtle differences and not so subtle differences that makes other skaters much more phenominal than Michelle as a skater, but may not be as consistent, are genuinely frustrated for seeing 6.0s being given out when they are truly not deserved.

The true test for Michelle will come when (and IF) she chooses to skate at a competition using the COP judging system where elements are grades, by difficulty and execution, and in betweens, innovation and so on in program choreography are truly rewarded. Under such a system, a flawed, but superior more difficult skate, is valued more than just skating clean with a simpler program.

Sorry this is long. I had a little venting to do. I don’t like when ppl beat on Sasha at MKF, and I don’t like Kwan bashing here. They are two very different, talented skaters. Lets just leave it at that.

There's a different between bashing (not a good thing at all) and knowing the differences that makes a phenominal competitive skater, from just an ultra consistent plain vanilla skater. I do indeed think Kwan has all the consistency and that's a very good thing, but there's more than just skating clean, there's skating difficulty and that's really important in competitive skating, but right now its all up to the judges what they want to reward, so there's truly no objective measure, unfortunately.

I look forward to seeing Michelle at Worlds competing under the COP, but I wouldn't be too surprised if she decided not to compete at Worlds this year either, given it uses COP and not 6.0 judging.

As a side note - under COP, its possible Johnny Weir might have placed ahead of Timothy Goebel in the Mens SP too... I wasn't much of a fan of COP initially, but it certainly proves to be a much better measure of true skating content, not just personal biases of judges and such.

[Wyliefan]

I did read somewhere recently that Michelle was getting advice on how to revamp her program for CoP at Worlds. Not sure where I saw the article, though. Was it posted on this board, can anyone remember?

[magicladi]

The USFSA cheapens 6.0s so much that all of Kwan's and anyone else's are meaningless... no way that Kwan's program would have gotten that at Worlds under a 6.0 system - at best maybe a 5.8, though given the lack of connecting elements, and so forth, a 5.6/5.7 at best from a really good judge.

Well, let's go tell Brian Boitano that his 9 6.0s are meaningless. And any other skater! I don't think they believe they are meaningless in the least, AdrianChew. Maybe they are meaningless to you and others, but you just made Sasha's 6.0 from last year (with a fall I might add) meaningless as well. Or do they only mean something if they are given to a skater you like?

Oh, and all those 6.0s at Worlds last year would be meaningless too. Funny thing is, they weren't given by the USFSA people but by the ISU judges. :lol:

You don't have a clue how Kwan will do under COP and neither do we. Personally I think she and Sasha will do extremely well (although I already know Sasha does well with COP). I think Kwan was making a joke about getting all those 6s because she knows she will have to skate under COP from now on. Also she has had feedback on her programs and is working hard to make them COP-friendly.

So, if all those 6.0s are meaningless, would you please go tell the skaters out there who seem to get enjoyment from seeing them, that they mean nothing?

[IceAngel286]

I think Kwan was making a joke about getting all those 6s because she knows she will have to skate under COP from now on.
That's how I saw it, too. I didn't think she meant anything else by that.

I like this article MUCH better than the other articles I've been reading. It's a lot less biased and more factual, seems like.

I'm so happy for Jenny!!! I think she can make it to Worlds this year!!! :D

[ditzysk8r]

The USFSA cheapens 6.0s so much that all of Kwan's and anyone else's are meaningless... no way that Kwan's program would have gotten that at Worlds under a 6.0 system - at best maybe a 5.8, though given the lack of connecting elements, and so forth, a 5.6/5.7 at best from a really good judge.

She would be deducted in her SP too for the lack of footwork really going into the 3-flip, but of course that didn't happen, and also for the flutz too.

Under COP - she would have been easily behind Sasha and possible some other skaters too... a very simple combo spin from many years ago. About the only notable thing she did differently is the stars/butterfly/sitspin instead of a flying camel or deathdrop. It was beyond that, a crossover galore, and so empty beyond the elements... stroke, stroke, stroke, jump, spin, jump, spin - one could fall asleep from it. Not to mention failing to interpret the music too - which is simply why 6.0s are so totally underserved in this particular instance.

Too bad - the USFSA seems set to give her the title already. It would take a major catastrophe of a freeskate from her to prevent that from happening, no matter how good the other skaters skate, or what additional elements and difficulty they might have in their programs. Its likely Kwan will win the title this year without even having a 3-loop. How sad indeed.
So true, so sad! The only way MK will lose is if she has a splatfest and Sasha is completely perfect.

I remember back to '97 Nationals when MK fell 3 times- yet she still won the silver medal! I don't know how the skaters who placed below her skated, but I'm sure a lot of them didn't fall 3 times!

It doesn't matter how bad she skates- they're giving away the 6.0's and the title.

I'm looking forward to seeing how she fares under COP!

[hillwilliam]

I remember back to '97 Nationals when MK fell 3 times- yet she still won the silver medal! I don't know how the skaters who placed below her skated, but I'm sure a lot of them didn't fall 3 times!

Are you referring to the Long Program? She fell twice in the Long Program, not three times.

[hillwilliam]

It doesn't matter how bad she skates- they're giving away the 6.0's and the title.

I'm having trouble remembering a time that MK skated "bad" and got 6.0's???

[ditzysk8r]

Are you referring to the Long Program? She fell twice in the Long Program, not three times.
Sorry, my bad.
And what I meant to say is, it doesn't MATTER how she skates, she'll get 6.0's, even if she DOES skate badly!

PS She received 6.0's at 2000 Nats, and her combination in the long was a double toe-double toe. :rolleyes:

[hillwilliam]

And what I meant to say is, it doesn't MATTER how she skates, she'll get 6.0's, even if she DOES skate badly!

I don't have any recollection of Michelle or any other skater skating badly and getting 6.0's. For example, Tosca probably didn't really deserve 6.0's last year but, the judges kind of backed themselves into a corner when they gave Sasha such high marks. When Michelle skated a better performance after Sasha had skated, some judges had to give her 6.0's to place her ahead of Sasha. While that program may not have been 6.0 worthy, she didn't skate badly.

[hillwilliam]

PS She received 6.0's at 2000 Nats, and her combination in the long was a double toe-double toe.

I'm pretty sure she doubled the combo at the 2001 Nats during Song of the Black Swan, not in 2000.

In that competition, she didn't get 6.0s for the Tech score. However, even with the doubled combo, she still completed 6 triple jumps.

P.S. BTW, I'm not some sort of nut who has all these jumps from these comps memorized. I just recently watched my compilation tapes because the GP Series was so boring with Sasha and Michelle. :D

[jobelle]

P.S. BTW, I'm not some sort of nut who has all these jumps from these comps memorized. I just recently watched my compilation tapes because the GP Series was so boring with Sasha and Michelle. :D

Even if you were a "nut" with all of those jumps memorized, it would be totally ok...and super-impressive! :D

[Calidreamer119]

Well, let's go tell Brian Boitano that his 9 6.0s are meaningless. And any other skater! I don't think they believe they are meaningless in the least, AdrianChew. Maybe they are meaningless to you and others, but you just made Sasha's 6.0 from last year (with a fall I might add) meaningless as well. Or do they only mean something if they are given to a skater you like?

How was Adrian saying every 6.0 is meaningless? What I got from that is that the 6.0's from this competition are being dolled out like candy. No doubt in my mind they'll be one of the most times we see the 6.0 in this competition. I understand why, but it's still a little ridiculous. 6.0 as you say means a great deal. It's the perfect score for a perfect program. This competition is taking that meaning away (FOR THIS COMPETITION) the skaters are receiving 6.0s for less than great programs. Thats all he was saying... think so at least ;)

[adrianchew]

Just forgot to say this earlier - the "Sasha For Gold" sign they showed on TV - Ashley held up that sign! ;)

[SashaTheGreat]

Yay! Go Ashley!

[SashaTarafan]

Just forgot to say this earlier - the "Sasha For Gold" sign they showed on TV - Ashley held up that sign! ;)

OMG that was Ashley! I am going back to rewatch my tape...can you see her or just he sign, I forget??

Oh yeah Adrian or Ashley or anyone else that was there. Was there any obvious MKFer's with burnt red on?? I tried to see in the audience but couldn't make out anything.

[taransashafan]

Just forgot to say this earlier - the "Sasha For Gold" sign they showed on TV - Ashley held up that sign! ;)

Oh cool I saw it!

What color shirts are you and Kiki wearing tomorrow night? Maybe we can spot you in the crowd, since your in THE FIRST ROW! Unfair, unfair! J/K ya know I love ya....

Goldenpromise21: "Tara and her family were self centered, and did infuriate the USFSA. I routed for Tara in 1998, but looking back, I don't respect all the decisions she made."

Can you elaborate on this? How were Tara and her family self centered? and what decisions did she make that you don't respect?

I am dying to hear your answers to this being the obsessed Tara fan I am... although I did like and agree with most of your post.

[Always_Sasha]

What color shirts are you and Kiki wearing tomorrow night? Maybe we can spot you in the crowd, since your in THE FIRST ROW! Unfair, unfair! J/K ya know I love ya.....

I'm wearing my white tank top with a watercolor painting picture of Sasha doing a layback on it :cool:

I saw myself tonight when I watched- Adrian and I are in the corner opposite the Kiss and Cry. And I have kept every one of my ticket stubs just because I love how Row A Seat 1 looks :angel:

[taransashafan]

I'm wearing my white tank top with a watercolor painting picture of Sasha doing a layback on it :cool:

I saw myself tonight when I watched- Adrian and I are in the corner opposite the Kiss and Cry. And I have kept every one of my ticket stubs just because I love how Row A Seat 1 looks :angel:

i will look for you two. I would keep my tickets too, thats so cool!

[danibellerika]

I kept mined for worlds in '03. It's still hangin no my door in this Atlanta '04 promotional neck band thing they gave us. The printing is starting to fade so i may do a home made lamination to save it :p .

[Always_Sasha]

My favorite freebie souvineer that I'm so keeping are these little flags that say "Go Sasha!" on them. Orowheat is sponsering her and they've been giving them out to anyone who promises to cheer for Sasha ;)

[magicladi]

How was Adrian saying every 6.0 is meaningless? What I got from that is that the 6.0's from this competition are being dolled out like candy. No doubt in my mind they'll be one of the most times we see the 6.0 in this competition. I understand why, but it's still a little ridiculous. 6.0 as you say means a great deal. It's the perfect score for a perfect program. This competition is taking that meaning away (FOR THIS COMPETITION) the skaters are receiving 6.0s for less than great programs. Thats all he was saying... think so at least ;)

This beginning statement did not refer to just this competition:

The USFSA cheapens 6.0s so much that all of Kwan's and anyone else's are meaningless

He may have meant for just this competition. If he did, he should have stated that. But I still stand by my post. If it makes all 6.0s meaningless (even if just for THIS competition), then he should go tell each and every skater that has gotten one that they are meaningless. The expression on those skaters' faces don't suggest to me that they found them meaningless at all. Maybe to Adrian and a few others throughout the skating boards these 6.0s have little value, but the skaters don't seem to think so based on their reactions.

To me it's belittling to make comments like that. It belittles the skaters' efforts, hard work and programs. So what if the 6.0s are being "doled out like candy"? Maybe the judges really feel those skaters deserve them? Maybe the skaters feel they deserve them.

So this is what I say: Congratulations to all those skaters who have received 6.0s at this or any other competition. To me, they aren't meaningless. :angel:

[IceAlisa]

magicladi, do you know why big, clear diamonds of good color are so expensive? Because they are rare and hard to come by. If you could dig them up in your backyard, those engagement rings wouldn't cost two months salary, would they?

Same with 6.0s. If they are given out freely, it reduces their value. I don't think that so far I've seen 6.0 performances at these Nats.

[Ashley]

Yay I was on TV!!!! I can't wait to get my DVD from Adrian so I can see myself! hehe

[adrianchew]

To me it's belittling to make comments like that. It belittles the skaters' efforts, hard work and programs. So what if the 6.0s are being "doled out like candy"? Maybe the judges really feel those skaters deserve them? Maybe the skaters feel they deserve them.

That's because you simply do not understand what the 6.0 mark in figure skating represents and how it should be awarded. By giving out 6.0s like candy, the USFSA cheapens 6.0s because it sends out a signal that you do not have to skate a program with exceptional presentation and artistry to receive the 6.0s... when you tell people that 6.0s are ok for a so-so program with no real artistry, you've made everyone else's 6.0s meaningless as far as what they are meant to represent.

There are times Michelle (and other skaters) have deserved 6.0s but by how they are giving them out at this competition, they have cheapened those prior 6.0s given out... its kinda like money, if you print enough of it, you water down the value of the currency so much that it becomes pretty much worthless... Japan did that during World War II and their currency really had no value during that period in time.

[Skatingfreak]

I agree with adrian. I rewatched Michelles 1998 Nationals Lyra Angelica performance, and, IMO, that program deserved the 6.0's it received. Her Bolero program this year in no way deserved even one of the 6.0's it received. It was obvious they were giving out 6.0's just because this is probably the last year we'll see them at Nationals. By doing that, they cheapened their value. Now, I loved Belbin&Agostos free dance and that deserved the 6.0's it received. But even the straight set of 6.0's they deservedly got seemed cheapened because of how the judges were doling them out during this competition. OH well. I like the COP system better anyway, especially after seeing how inflated some people's scores were (aka Kwan's) and how they deflated others (aka Bebe Liang's scores).

[azncarrot]

magicladi, do you know why big, clear diamonds of good color are so expensive? Because they are rare and hard to come by. If you could dig them up in your backyard, those engagement rings wouldn't cost two months salary, would they?

Same with 6.0s. If they are given out freely, it reduces their value. I don't think that so far I've seen 6.0 performances at these Nats.
That's what I think. I kinda already knew before the competition started that the judges were going ot hand out 6.0's. They did it at Worlds where a 6.0 is harder to come by, so why not give them out?

You can buy "real" manufactured diamonds now, but they're cheaper and not valued as high even though they are, in every sense, still a perfect diamond. But they're not really real and who wants one that's not real.

Although I got the sense that those skaters who did get 6.0 really did appreciate getting them since they knew that they would never get another chance, especially those who felt great after they skated (Evan and Michelle in the short, and Tanith and Ben in the free dance.) I don't think that the 6.0's earned with imperfect programs were as valued (Johnny and Michelle in the long.) I think they went overboard in giving out 6.0's for imperfect programs. At last when a skater skates well, a 6.0 can be somewhat justified since it's all a matter of preference, but when mistakes are made, there's no way to justify a 6.0 (unless the judge was idiotic and boxed him/herself in.)

[M4oboe]

That's what I think. I kinda already knew before the competition started that the judges were going ot hand out 6.0's. They did it at Worlds where a 6.0 is harder to come by, so why not give them out?

You can buy "real" manufactured diamonds now, but they're cheaper and not valued as high even though they are, in every sense, still a perfect diamond. But they're not really real and who wants one that's not real.

Although I got the sense that those skaters who did get 6.0 really did appreciate getting them since they knew that they would never get another chance, especially those who felt great after they skated (Evan and Michelle in the short, and Tanith and Ben in the free dance.) I don't think that the 6.0's earned with imperfect programs were as valued (Johnny and Michelle in the long.) I think they went overboard in giving out 6.0's for imperfect programs. At last when a skater skates well, a 6.0 can be somewhat justified since it's all a matter of preference, but when mistakes are made, there's no way to justify a 6.0 (unless the judge was idiotic and boxed him/herself in.)

lol..I love your reference to the diamonds..it's true though. And I think the the 6.0's were given out like candy at Halloween time..it's like ..oh you want a 6.0..and you skated semi well..ok cool...at halloween..oh you want candy..your costume is semi ok..ok.here's the candy.