Observation about Sarah Hughes (No bashing, please)

[sonador16]

I was watching both her Don Quixote program from '01 Worlds and her '02 Olympics LP, and I had some observations which I felt like noting.

She's quite tall, like 5'6", right? Even when she was fifteen, she was very leggy, which gave her nice long lines. I feel like she could have done a whole lot more with those, though. She could have used them to her advantage to look elegant more so than she did.

I was 9 at the time of SLC, so for years, I've just been like Sarah, eww, b/c she defeated my beloved MK, and later,when I found out about Sasha, b/c Sasha beat her at Nats, but didn't podium at Olys. However, when I finally decided to watch Sarah, I was pleasantly surprised. I always pictured her as an awkward lumbering skater (heh.), but she really, really isn't. She had a really nice quality to her skating, and I do wish that she would have continued and developed that, rather than quitting. At least Tara had a major hip injury. Sarah could have if she wanted to.

Her plus points:

She had nice lines
Nice flow between elements
Whatever anyone may say about her cheated 3/3s, the girl could jump.
Pleasant quality
Nice edges (except on her spirals. Ugh, what shallow edges! I felt like she was going to fall any second)
She clearly UNDERSTOOD the music, and as one of the commentators said, she and her choreographer paid good attention to the phrasing of the music, especially in Don Quixote.
Nice speed
Nice spin positions

Her negatives:

She OVERUSED leg extensions. She does them EVERY OTHER SECOND! Not even joking.
While she understood the music, she couldn't bring that understanding out and translate it into soulful artistry.
At times, you can clearly see a little bit of...coltishness, I want to say, a little awkwardness, like she wasn't fully done growing and adjusting to herself. There were a few awkward moments that would have def.0 gone away with time, if only she had stayed.
There was no MAGIC in her Olympic freeskate. There's no passion and no soul in that performance. It's pleasant to watch, and she was probably enjoying herself, but....it wasn't enough. Even Tara displayed emotion during her skate. This might be making no sense or nitpicking, but...for lack of a better word, there was no magic, or no *IT* in that performance.

[Sasha Spiral]

Well I know a lot of people did not like her but she was one of my favorites. I know she had some technique issues, but she never gave up on the jumps. She had nice spirals, beautiful layback. But the thing I liked most about her was her competitive spirit and her joy of skating. Yea, I wanted Michelle to win at the SLC Olymmpics, but I could not have been more happy for Sarah, she skated her butt off.

I selfishly sometimes wish she had not of won, I think she would have continued on, and we could have seen her develope more. It would have been nice to see a little friendly rivalry between her and Sasha. :sasha:

[Lanie]

Her under-rotated jumps and somewhat lumbering posture made me not a fan but she did have a fabulous layback. That and her horrible spirals...good extension but my God, the bad leg turn out - Alissa Czisny does the same thing. Drives me crazy.

[littleskateress]

As much as I want to say what I usually comment about this girl, I'll hold myself back, looking at "(No bashing, please)". I just made myself watch Sarah's SLC LP again, scrutinizing her every glide. We'll start of with what in my opinion looks satisfactory.

Positive:
She's having fun and enjoying herself. Lighthearted personality.
Good running edge out of her double axel.
Pretty catch-camel position.
Nice layback.
Fast ice coverage.

Negative:
Mouth is wide open after every jump landing. Really distracts from the overall skating.
Mediocre artistry and shallow choreography.
A lot of generic hand-flailing as part of her presentation and too much leg extension to the side.
Could have used varied arm position and more challenging step sequence that might actually be worth an Olympic Gold.
Doesn't hold the Ina Bauer position for more than a second or so, thus losing its whole effect.
Poor posture.
Bad flutzer.
Absolutely no expression related to the music.
Hers and Robin's screaming wasn't exactly music to my ears.

And the list goes on. I wish there was a slow-motion, zoom-in version of this. :lol: Sarah had good potential which hadn't developed properly yet, even when she won her medal. Is it the coaching, the skater, I don't know. But I have no idea why she didn't work on the areas where she had to improve so much.

[Emma7639]

I liked her Olympic programs better than Tara's.

Sarah's LP was what made me want to start figure skating. (although I didn't start until 4 years later after seeing Kimmie Meissner's FS at 06 Nats.)

[amazing_sasha7]

It's okay. Sarah Hughes didn't have as much of the "IT" Factor as Sasha, MK, or Tara. She was just a good skater, although it would have been nice to see her keep practicing even though she wasn't competing.

[Sasha Spiral]

Her under-rotated jumps and somewhat lumbering posture made me not a fan but she did have a fabulous layback. That and her horrible spirals...good extension but my God, the bad leg turn out - Alissa Czisny does the same thing. Drives me crazy.[/QUOTE]

I knew there was something about Alissa's spirals that drive me crazy. I don't think Sarah's were quite that bad. I liked her spirals. I hope Alissa fixes that problem. :sasha:

[shine_brighter]

I wasn't that impressed with her Oly performance.

However, I do wish she had kept competing. Was there any reason she just retired after her medal?

[ems_loves_sasha]

I wasn't that impressed with her Oly performance.

However, I do wish she had kept competing. Was there any reason she just retired after her medal?

I think she was planning on going to college and that was the main reason? Can anyone back me up on that, or am I totally off?

[pelladon]

Something people forget: Figure skating is COMPETITION. Sarah had her good and bad points. During the olympic season, Sarah was very consistent in competition. She beat MK and Irina in GP events. Frank Carroll said before SLC, don't count out Sarah. Mishin said she was the most consistent of the ladies.

How did that saying go? "can’t see the forest for the trees..."

[futurechampion2]

Hmm, I just kinda lost respect for her after around the end of 2002 and 2003

but I have to give her a topn of credit because the 2002 olympics was I think the first comeptition i really tuned into and payed attention...I was like 11, and her program really moved me and touched me...I really remember noticing the crowd and stuff after, and I remember seeing her like fall on the floor when she realized that she won and that really stuck with me!!! I think that was really one of the first times I was kind of visualizing my dream like that

[Particle Man]

There was no MAGIC in her Olympic freeskate. There's no passion and no soul in that performance. It's pleasant to watch, and she was probably enjoying herself, but....it wasn't enough. Even Tara displayed emotion during her skate. This might be making no sense or nitpicking, but...for lack of a better word, there was no magic, or no *IT* in that performance.

I was with you up until this statement. WHAT? :eek: The "magic" of her performance and the drama of the eventual win converted me from an occasional watcher to a full-on figure skating fan. Obviously she didn't have the fully polished technique/skills of some of our other favorites, but I thought it was significantly better than Tara's winning program of 4 years previous (and I thought her overall technique was better than Tara's also.) I really thought it was a brilliant program, which I would have enjoyed even if she hadn't skated it cleanly. Of course, she did skate cleanly, and that made it a truly thrilling moment. I would put Sarah somewhere around the "Kimmie Meissner" level of FS which in my book is not quite the pinnacle (and I would put quite a few at that level.) If she hadn't won the OGM and had retained her drive to continue to compete and win, who knows how she'd have fit into the current crop of skaters. SH may have been something of a shooting star, but in Salt Lake she really was the best on that night, and fully deserved her win.

And may I remind you - Michelle got Bronze. Without Sarah, Irina would have won gold, not Michelle. So despite a lot of MK's fans unkind statements, Sarah really did not "steal" a thing from Michelle, except incidentally an OSM which Michelle already had anyway.

[Lanie]

I wasn't that impressed with her Oly performance.

However, I do wish she had kept competing. Was there any reason she just retired after her medal?

She came back in 2002-03 for Nats and beat Sasha for the silver medal (Sasha performed very poorly and some think AP McDonough should have been 3rd) and was very out of shape and performed pretty badly at 2003 Worlds. She's going to school. Good for her, more skaters should go to school.

[Particle Man]

She came back in 2002-03 for Nats and beat Sasha for the silver medal (Sasha performed very poorly and some think AP McDonough should have been 3rd) and was very out of shape and performed pretty badly at 2003 Worlds. She's going to school. Good for her, more skaters should go to school.

I actually just watched that Nats on tape a couple nights ago. I was like "AP McWho? Oh yeah ... what the heck happened to her?" And yeah, the crowd was upset at her placement. It seems she was scored a bit low but I'd have to watch it again specifically for that, to make a determination...

[Lanie]

I actually just watched that Nats on tape a couple nights ago. I was like "AP McWho? Oh yeah ... what the heck happened to her?" And yeah, the crowd was upset at her placement. It seems she was scored a bit low but I'd have to watch it again specifically for that, to make a determination...

They wanted to keep Sasha on the podium, and face it, her program was harder. Even so, they'd have sent Sasha to Worlds since she is WAY more consistent than AP ever would be. AP's heart was never in skating. You know something's up when her mother says she picked a little Korean girl to adopt because she wanted her little girl to be a skater. :(

[Particle Man]

AP's heart was never in skating. You know something's up when her mother says she picked a little Korean girl to adopt because she wanted her little girl to be a skater. :(

Yikes. :eek: If I ever have kids (looking doubtful) I would try to get them into things like figure skating. I never was really pushed to "do" anything, well other than academics. But that quote is just ridiculous. I hope APM has moved on to more fulfilling pursuits of her own choosing, rather than just being some kind of wish fulfillment for her mom.

[neeks.on.ice.]

i've never really felt anything in particular about sarah hughes. she's was there at the right place competing against the right people and she skated beautifully, if not awe-inspiringly, at the right moment. i dont think that makes her a better skater then someone like michelle. however, i tend to forget when i'm critiquing skating that all elite skaters have worked ridiculously hard to get to where they are and any olympic skater deserves the respect of younger skaters, like us, becuase we all know how hard it is. so, yeah, sarah isnt one of my special favorites, but i have respect for all elite skaters for getting where they are. i guess the possible exception is tonya harding;) , but even her, i have a huge amount of respect for her jumps

[Sashacohenfan]

As much as I want to say what I usually comment about this girl, I'll hold myself back, looking at "(No bashing, please)". I just made myself watch Sarah's SLC LP again, scrutinizing her every glide. We'll start of with what in my opinion looks satisfactory.

Positive:
She's having fun and enjoying herself. Lighthearted personality.
Good running edge out of her double axel.
Pretty catch-camel position.
Nice layback.
Fast ice coverage.

Negative:
Mouth is wide open after every jump landing. Really distracts from the overall skating.
Mediocre artistry and shallow choreography.
A lot of generic hand-flailing as part of her presentation and too much leg extension to the side.
Could have used varied arm position and more challenging step sequence that might actually be worth an Olympic Gold.
Doesn't hold the Ina Bauer position for more than a second or so, thus losing its whole effect.
Poor posture.
Bad flutzer.
Absolutely no expression related to the music.
Hers and Robin's screaming wasn't exactly music to my ears.

And the list goes on. I wish there was a slow-motion, zoom-in version of this. :lol: Sarah had good potential which hadn't developed properly yet, even when she won her medal. Is it the coaching, the skater, I don't know. But I have no idea why she didn't work on the areas where she had to improve so much.

God i couldn't agree with that more, the most appropriate word in that post was Mediocre. I think that describes her skating in a nutshell. I'm not a huge MK fan but Sarah winning the olympics? i think it was pure luck that the others (notably MK) didn't skate as well..... There was nothing WOW about her skating for me :lol:

[sonador16]

I was with you up until this statement. WHAT? :eek: The "magic" of her performance and the drama of the eventual win converted me from an occasional watcher to a full-on figure skating fan. Obviously she didn't have the fully polished technique/skills of some of our other favorites, but I thought it was significantly better than Tara's winning program of 4 years previous (and I thought her overall technique was better than Tara's also.) I really thought it was a brilliant program, which I would have enjoyed even if she hadn't skated it cleanly. Of course, she did skate cleanly, and that made it a truly thrilling moment. I would put Sarah somewhere around the "Kimmie Meissner" level of FS which in my book is not quite the pinnacle (and I would put quite a few at that level.) If she hadn't won the OGM and had retained her drive to continue to compete and win, who knows how she'd have fit into the current crop of skaters. SH may have been something of a shooting star, but in Salt Lake she really was the best on that night, and fully deserved her win.

And may I remind you - Michelle got Bronze. Without Sarah, Irina would have won gold, not Michelle. So despite a lot of MK's fans unkind statements, Sarah really did not "steal" a thing from Michelle, except incidentally an OSM which Michelle already had anyway.

Umm...did I ever say that MK was robbed on that night? No. There is no question Sarah was better on that night and deserved to win. I said that my little nine year old self was devastated that Sarah beat my beloved MK. Note how I said that that was when I was nine and barely knew anything?

By magic, I mean that quality of program where the skater really just "digs in" so to speak, and you can *feel* that they're giving the program everything they've got. Programs like that (such as MK's Lyra, Salome, or Sasha's Olys Dark Eyes or her R+J), you know that those programs will be frozen in time as a moment when an athlete reached the pinnacle of their sport, as close to perfection as we can get in this crazy sport :D regardless of the outcome. THose programs I mentioned, and many others such as Johnny's Olys SP and Evan's Olys LP, are just...they *are* . They fit the description I just gave.

With Sarah's Olys LP, I don't feel like she "dug in". I feel as though she was skating very "on top of the music" rather than *in* it.

I have never claimed to be anything other than disgruntled that Tara won Nagano, but on the other hand, I am a Tara fan. And whatever Tara's faults (tiny jumps, poor extension, up till '98, almost zero artistry), I will never claim that she was artistic on that night, but she did "dig in". You could totally feel her give her soul to that program, and it did get frozen in time. Sarah's...not so much.

I'm not bashing or dissing Sarah. I don't doubt that she every bit deserved that gold, or that she gave that program her all, or that she was incredibly happy at being at the Olympics, doing what she wanted to do, and achieving her dreams. And as Nica said, I have a HUGE amount of respect for ALL skaters. In fact, I quite like Sarah.

All I question is the magic of that performance, which for ME, wasn't there. If you have a different opinion, that's fine. Different people view artistry in different ways. A lot of skaters I think are quite artistic (Like Yukari Nakano) many people think are wooden. A lot of skaters who I *don't* think have a great deal of artistry. So...

[pelladon]

not quite bashing, but a lot of reopening of old wounds, LOL.

[sunsetlily]

I just always find it annoying how there's so many amazing skaters out there...and you look and see "Sarah Hughes, OGM". It just doesn't fit and it makes me rather sad. Honestly though, I've only seen Sarah's LP twice (once as it was shown and once last summer) and I don't remember much. Apparently it didn't quite leave an impression, but regardless I can't comment on her skating since I don't know it well. It bothers me how she just came and went. Isn't there more to skating than an OGM? But good for her, though, for going to college....at YALE for heaven's sake.

[Sasha Spiral]

[QUOTE=sunsetlily;314544]I just always find it annoying how there's so many amazing skaters out there...and you look and see "Sarah Hughes, OGM". It just doesn't fit and it makes me rather sad. QUOTE]

Well it goes back to being a good competitor. That's what Sarah was more then anything. She liked to compete well. Yes, there were better skaters but were they better competitors? Being a good competitor took her to the top of the sport. At least as far as the Olympics. But that's the prize most people want. :sasha:

[pelladon]

I just always find it annoying how there's so many amazing skaters out there...and you look and see "Sarah Hughes, OGM". It just doesn't fit and it makes me rather sad. Honestly though, I've only seen Sarah's LP twice (once as it was shown and once last summer) and I don't remember much. Apparently it didn't quite leave an impression, but regardless I can't comment on her skating since I don't know it well. It bothers me how she just came and went. Isn't there more to skating than an OGM? But good for her, though, for going to college....at YALE for heaven's sake.

Well, the OGM is something you win, it is NOT an entitlement. I watched Sarah's FS performance (only the second time I watched her skate), and WOW. That was an Olympic moment IMO.

What she does afterwards does not diminish nor take away from that moment in her life.:)

[michiruwater]

In response to something Particle Man said, I firmly believe that they placed Irina above Michelle in the FS because that was the only way Sarah could win the OGM. I thought Michelle deserved 2nd in the FS, and if they'd given it to her, she'd be Michelle Kwan, Olympic Gold Medalist. They had to give it to Sarah, though, with the Pairs scandal coming to light. And thus they had to place Irina above Michelle. Ordinals are the dumbest idea ever.

Guarantee you, if Sarah had performed shoddily, the podium would have been 1. MK, 2. Irina, 3. Sasha.

One thing that bothers me immensely about Sarah's OGM is that her SP wasn't good. I am so sick of everyone having this mindset that a fantastic LP blows a crap SP out of the water and they still deserve the GM. It's like the SP doesn't even matter, which is dumb.

But yes, Sarah's LP was absolute magic. She's not that great a skater, as shown by her 6th place at Worlds the next year (which must have been embarassing), but on that particular night, her LP was magical.

[pelladon]

In response to something Particle Man said, I firmly believe that they placed Irina above Michelle in the FS because that was the only way Sarah could win the OGM. I thought Michelle deserved 2nd in the FS, and if they'd given it to her, she'd be Michelle Kwan, Olympic Gold Medalist. They had to give it to Sarah, though, with the Pairs scandal coming to light. And thus they had to place Irina above Michelle. Ordinals are the dumbest idea ever.

Guarantee you, if Sarah had performed shoddily, the podium would have been 1. MK, 2. Irina, 3. Sasha.

One thing that bothers me immensely about Sarah's OGM is that her SP wasn't good. I am so sick of everyone having this mindset that a fantastic LP blows a crap SP out of the water and they still deserve the GM. It's like the SP doesn't even matter, which is dumb.
...

I read the judges comments after the event and they had to think about MK and Irina's placements. Kinda close, but no way they would have guaranteed MK the gold.

Funny on watching MK's FS (only the second time I've watched her, LOL), she looked slow and when she took off on her 3F, she was so tilted, I knew it was over right there before she even came down.

[sunsetlily]

Forget what I said before. Apparently I didn't word it right because everyone took it out of context.

[sonador16]

^No, no, I totally get what you mean :D There are just some skaters, like Plushy, that you cannot deny the gold to.

It's not that OGM is an entitlement, but it should go to the best skater. Obviously, you have to be fair, but the thing is...the amount of joy that comes from winning it should be reserved for the best skater, the skater for the ages, and the amount of sorrow that comes from losing it shouldn't go to the person who should be wearing that medal.

It's just not fair. The best skater doesn't always skate the best on one night, and the judges have to reward the one who does. But it's just not fair that the greatest skater of all time doesn't have her Olympic gold.

[michiruwater]

Of all time is a matter of opinion ;)

MK doesn't need the freaking OGM. Seriously. No one cares anymore about Tara or Sarah outside of the skating realm, but plenty of non-fans love MK, and that's worth more in the end, anyway.

[sonador16]

Of all time is a matter of opinion ;)

MK doesn't need the freaking OGM. Seriously. No one cares anymore about Tara or Sarah outside of the skating realm, but plenty of non-fans love MK, and that's worth more in the end, anyway.


Hee hee, I know, but the one thing that's indisputable is that MK is a champion. You may not like her or her style, whatever you think about her, you cannot deny that she's got the heart.

I know she doesn't need the OGM. EVERYONE knows Michelle Kwan, but hardly anyone knows Shiza, Sarah, Tara, or Oksana, to name the last 4 OGMs. I just don't want Michelle to feel sad or inadequate in any way b/c she doesn't have an OGM. Her fans couldn't care less. We love her anyway, and perhaps even more so than if she HAD 2 OGMs.

[pelladon]

Hee hee, I know, but the one thing that's indisputable is that MK is a champion. You may not like her or her style, whatever you think about her, you cannot deny that she's got the heart.

I know she doesn't need the OGM. EVERYONE knows Michelle Kwan, but hardly anyone knows Shiza, Sarah, Tara, or Oksana, to name the last 4 OGMs. I just don't want Michelle to feel sad or inadequate in any way b/c she doesn't have an OGM. Her fans couldn't care less. We love her anyway, and perhaps even more so than if she HAD 2 OGMs.

Irina was far more popular in Europe. Kostner is well know in Italy. Really, this MK centric view is not world-wide, contrary to what you might feel.

And I know for a fact that Korea didn't give a hoot about figure skating till Yu-Na came along (and Nari Nam).

[Sashacohenfan]

I am really not an MK fan but i think she should've won........ And i'm european (russian) so you'd think i was rooting for Irina? No, i thought MK was the best skater there at the time.....

[pelladon]

I am really not an MK fan but i think she should've won........ And i'm european (russian) so you'd think i was rooting for Irina? No, i thought MK was the best skater there at the time.....

I didn't say all Europeans, and certainly not you, LOL.

[Sashacohenfan]

Ok then, i was just saying :D Lol this is like our 2nd run in?! Hehe no hard feelings :D

[attyfan]

The one problem that I have with "Sarah Hughes -- OGM" is that, while we demand that the gold go to the skater who was the best on the night in question (as we should), the OGM gets treated as a "lifetime achievement award" (even though it isn't). Was Sarah the best in the FS in SLC? I think so. Did she deserve the "lifetime achievement award"? I think not.

I also doubt if Europe (and/or Asia) are as "OGM-centric" as is the US -- certainly Petrova and Tikhnov's popularity in Russia (and in Japan) and/or Shen and Zhao's popularity in China (and elsewhere) are not explained by an OGM.

I do think the one thing that benefitted Sarah a great deal during her career is "being overshadowed", as opposed "being overhyped".

[pelladon]

The one problem that I have with "Sarah Hughes -- OGM" is that, while we demand that the gold go to the skater who was the best on the night in question (as we should), the OGM gets treated as a "lifetime achievement award" (even though it isn't). Was Sarah the best in the FS in SLC? I think so. Did she deserve the "lifetime achievement award"? I think not.
...


You think so? What do mean "you think so"? That was a clear cut win in the FS, please don't go there.

OGM gets all the perks and attention that comes with it, that's how it is. Deserving isn't a factor in who gets it.

[sunsetlily]

You think so? What do mean "you think so"? That was a clear cut win in the FS, please don't go there.


I think you took that wrong. Think of it more like "I think so." and not "I think so."

[attyfan]

I think you took that wrong. Think of it more like "I think so." and not "I think so."

Thank you for getting it right for me.

[Lanie]

In response to something Particle Man said, I firmly believe that they placed Irina above Michelle in the FS because that was the only way Sarah could win the OGM. I thought Michelle deserved 2nd in the FS, and if they'd given it to her, she'd be Michelle Kwan, Olympic Gold Medalist. They had to give it to Sarah, though, with the Pairs scandal coming to light. And thus they had to place Irina above Michelle. Ordinals are the dumbest idea ever.

Guarantee you, if Sarah had performed shoddily, the podium would have been 1. MK, 2. Irina, 3. Sasha.

Yes, especially seeing how the general public going to see these events didn't get much out of the OBO system anyway. They just knew what 5.8, 6.0 'should' be, you know? And the "scandal" just made people more ignorant. They think marks means what they end up with, not the ordinals. that's why they had to "save" marks and do all that other ridiculous crap that would hurt "lower ranked" skaters that should have been higher; they got screwed skating early.

Sarah's SP should have been around, like, 8th or 9th IMO. Under COP she'd be clobbered.

[littleskateress]

Irina was far more popular in Europe. Kostner is well know in Italy. Really, this MK centric view is not world-wide, contrary to what you might feel.

And I know for a fact that Korea didn't give a hoot about figure skating till Yu-Na came along (and Nari Nam).

That is definitely true. In western Russia, when I ask a skating spectator "Do you know who Michelle Kwan is?", the response is this: "A skater?".

So I wouldn't say MK is a world-wide figure skating queen, as most Americans think. I'm not saying that spectators in other countries don't like her or something, but she is much more popular in America (especially after so many national titles earned) than in European countries for instance.

Oh, and Leyla, I think a LOT of people know Oksana.... even my grandmother does, and I'm not kidding.

[Sashacohenfan]

That is definitely true. In western Russia, when I ask a skating spectator "Do you know who Michelle Kwan is?", the response is this: "A skater?".

So I wouldn't say MK is a world-wide figure skating queen, as most Americans think. I'm not saying that spectators in other countries don't like her or something, but she is much more popular in America (especially after so many national titles earned) than in European countries for instance.

Oh, and Leyla, I think a LOT of people know Oksana.... even my grandmother does, and I'm not kidding.


Really? OMG i swear like all my friends in SPB know who she is and they're not even into skating! I guess it's because St.Petersburg holds loads of events and stuff......

No one in England knows who she is in all fairness.....

Lol your babushka Sasha! She sounds pretty cool :D

[littleskateress]

^ Maybe that's because the European skaters are far more well-known in Moscow and the cities near it (such as the ones where I've been and talked to people who know about skating; Ufa, Somara, Chelyabinsk, and Ekaterenburg). Maybe it's a region thing? I dunno. I am positive though that nowadays many people there aren't really aware of awesomeness of the current or previous American skaters.

WOAH, way off topic. Back on it, now; Sarah was a good skater (no pun intended).

[Particle Man]

Umm...did I ever say that MK was robbed on that night? No. There is no question Sarah was better on that night and deserved to win. I said that [I]my little nine year old self was devastated that Sarah beat my beloved MK. Note how I said that that was when I was nine and barely knew anything?

I'm just saying, "first impressions." I think part of that 9-year old self is still present and doesn't want to give up on resenting Sarah, and that continues to color your opinion of her skate that night, but that's just my opinion. And maybe you didn't say MK was robbed, but others do, including even in this thread:

I firmly believe that they placed Irina above Michelle in the FS because that was the only way Sarah could win the OGM. I thought Michelle deserved 2nd in the FS, and if they'd given it to her, she'd be Michelle Kwan, Olympic Gold Medalist. They had to give it to Sarah, though, with the Pairs scandal coming to light. And thus they had to place Irina above Michelle. Guarantee you, if Sarah had performed shoddily, the podium would have been 1. MK, 2. Irina, 3. Sasha.

......... Hard to formulate a response to this one. I guess I'll just summarize it with: :rolleyes:

[Particle Man]

Sarah's SP should have been around, like, 8th or 9th IMO. Under COP she'd be clobbered.

Many people maintain that under COP, Michelle would be clobbered. But I don't find such comments relevant or fair. They were all skating to the rules at the time, as best they could. I'm happy that Michelle got the most 6.0's in history, I'm happy that Sarah won OGM under the old system and I don't like when people try to create these exceptions in order to slam one skater or another. It's childish.

[sonador16]

^Sash: a lot of RUSSIAN/UKRAINIAN/EX-SOVIETS know Oksana. And a lot of people *knew* her b/c she had a very touching story and she was linked to the whole Nancy/Tonya thing, and b/c of her drunk driving incident. But a lot of the general younger public in the US don't know her as well. That's in MY experience though.

On the contrary, in my experience, while Michelle isn't KNOWN by every person in every country, she is a lot better known than the average elite skater. She's not a worldwide ice queen, but she's pretty close.

and Particle Man...

umm...no. I formulate my opinions based on what I see. I saw nothing in Sarah's LP that warranted either unbelievable praise or scalding criticism. It was bland. And I don't think I need to justify myself or my opinions or my prejudices anymore. I saw what I saw. It had nothing to do with what I previously thought.

[Particle Man]

I formulate my opinions based on what I see. I saw nothing in Sarah's LP that warranted either unbelievable praise or scalding criticism. It was bland.

Hmm, a bland program that brought the crowd to its feet. Interesting fact - she couldn't even hear the end of her music because the crowd got so loud they drowned it out completely, so she just had to wing it at the end. I guess we were just watching a different program...

[neeks.on.ice.]

different programs attract different people. Sarahs particular style of skating doesnt do it for everyone. you have no right to like, scold anyone for not enjoying a program. people have opinions...its all good, "thats what makes horse racing"
and incidentaly, figure skating

[pelladon]

Hmm, a bland program that brought the crowd to its feet. Interesting fact - she couldn't even hear the end of her music because the crowd got so loud they drowned it out completely, so she just had to wing it at the end. I guess we were just watching a different program...

Maybe they meant the US Nationals FS, which was bland. She and coach Wagner did rework it for a more dramatic ending at SLC. Maybe sonador16 is confusing the two?

Really off-topic: I've always wondered how Sasha would have scored had she landed everything that night. My guess is she would have won gold.

[Particle Man]

Except when people state opinions as facts. I said "it brought the crowd to its feet" which is a fact. "It was bland" is not a fact, but Sonador stated it stated as one. Anyway, clearly no progress will be made on this issue. But since the issues are being raised, I'm simply responding to them.

pelladon: I get the feeling that is not the case...

[michiruwater]

......... Hard to formulate a response to this one. I guess I'll just summarize it with: :rolleyes:

What a well-thought-out reply. Thank you very much for your input.

Leyla is allowed to think that Sarah's LP was bland, even if the entire rest of the forum disagrees (and it very well might). I've seen people who hated T&D's Bolero. To each his or her own.

[pelladon]

Except when people state opinions as facts. I said "it brought the crowd to its feet" which is a fact. "It was bland" is not a fact, but Sonador stated it stated as one. Anyway, clearly no progress will be made on this issue. But since the issues are being raised, I'm simply responding to them.

pelladon: I get the feeling that is not the case...
I wouldn't sweat it, this thread was headed nowhere fast.

[michiruwater]

@ Pelladon, I don't know if she would have won gold... it depends if she had placed behind or ahead of Sarah. But her 3-3 was harder than Sarah's. I don't know, that's a hard one. Her SP was so gorgeous though:)

[Lanie]

Sasha wouldhave MAYBE medalled, but her program didn't have the electric spark that Sarah's did that night. Had Sasha skated perfectly, maybe, but Sasha also didn't really have a full footwork sequence; she got her butt kicked for it in the tech marks.

They would have had to keep Kwan and Slutskaya on the podium no matter how they skated, esp Kwan.

[pelladon]

What a well-thought-out reply. Thank you very much for your input.

Leyla is allowed to think that Sarah's LP was bland, even if the entire rest of the forum disagrees (and it very well might). I've seen people who hated T&D's Bolero. To each his or her own.

I didn't think Bolero was all that great, their other stuff was better, LOL.

[pelladon]

@ Pelladon, I don't know if she would have won gold... it depends if she had placed behind or ahead of Sarah. But her 3-3 was harder than Sarah's. I don't know, that's a hard one. Her SP was so gorgeous though:)

It's just a gut feeling, I'm not saying she would have. Just a what-if scenario.

[michiruwater]

Sasha wouldhave MAYBE medalled, but her program didn't have the electric spark that Sarah's did that night. Had Sasha skated perfectly, maybe, but Sasha also didn't really have a full footwork sequence; she got her butt kicked for it in the tech marks.

They would have had to keep Kwan and Slutskaya on the podium no matter how they skated, esp Kwan.

Kwan for sure, but then they could have just flip flopped their LP placements. Irina would have been fourth.

I agree that Sasha, had she skated Carmen full-out... would have come in 2nd in the LP (and overall, then? I don't know ordinals that well). Carmen wasn't the world's greatest program, IMO. But it's hard to say.

I didn't think Bolero was all that great, their other stuff was better, LOL.

^See!! :-P And yeah, I knew you meant a what-if, that's why I responded the way I did ;)

[pelladon]

Sasha wouldhave MAYBE medalled, but her program didn't have the electric spark that Sarah's did that night. Had Sasha skated perfectly, maybe, but Sasha also didn't really have a full footwork sequence; she got her butt kicked for it in the tech marks.

They would have had to keep Kwan and Slutskaya on the podium no matter how they skated, esp Kwan.

No sasha would have medalled, she was third after the SP. Just don't know what color she would have gotten. Had she nailed everything, that would have been 7 triples.

[pelladon]

^See!! :-P And yeah, I knew you meant a what-if, that's why I responded the way I did ;)

In reference to ^T&D-Bolero^: It was clever in it's way. The music was one long crescendo, same beat, no variations. They interpreted it as two lovers that met a fiery end :) The music was longer than that allowed, so the first part of the routine was a variation on posing (swaying, followed by Dean lifting Jayne and putting her down. The clock didn't start until the blade touched the ice.) The had their usual tricks. He even did a overhead (illegal) but these guys were always pushing it. It wasn't bad, but I liked their previous stuff more (like Paso Doble).

[michiruwater]

Yeah, I read an article on the make-up of the routine in... I think IFS? That was when I looked it up for the first time cause I was intrigued. I thought it was amazing but I believe you when you say they may have had better programs. I haven't seen all of them :)

[littleskateress]

Observation, nobody kill me, please:

The honest truth is that we may spend forever playing the what-if game, which will neither change the placements nor opinions. It's hard to believe that people are still debating over events which occurred over 5 years ago ... especially over something as unimportant right now as the final standings of the SLC Olympics. I wish Americans nowadays had the same amount of time to discuss world-wide issues such as the congress's decisions about the Iraqi war or something. It's useless quarreling over the past.

[michiruwater]

Oh of course it is but it's still interesting:lol: People still argue about placements from over 20 years ago after all :-P

As is, this is a figure skating forum, so we will be discussing figure skating. And Lord knows I've discussed the Iraq policy enough all over the place... but clearly we have a President who isn't interested in public opinion anyway:confused:

[neeks.on.ice.]

yes! thank you sasha! i have wanted to say that but i thought people would kill me
luv ya

[pelladon]

Observation, nobody kill me, please:

The honest truth is that we may spend forever playing the what-if game, which will neither change the placements nor opinions. It's hard to believe that people are still debating over events which occurred over 5 years ago ... especially over something as unimportant right now as the final standings of the SLC Olympics. I wish Americans nowadays had the same amount of time to discuss world-wide issues such as the congress's decisions about the Iraqi war or something. It's useless quarreling over the past.

Don't you think the public has been trying to get the Bush Admin to LISTEN! They just ignore and continue. Poor Sheehan camped out at his ranch, no avail. What's next, revolution???

And congress sucks, I knew they were going to back down. But this is really off-topic.

[Particle Man]

What a well-thought-out reply. Thank you very much for your input.

You're welcome. It was very well thought out. Thoughts like "this person thinks the 2002 Olympic results were a giant conspiracy, what can I say to change their mind?"

Answer = :rolleyes:

[michiruwater]

I'm not sure if conspiracy is the right word. I do think that Irina should have placed below MK, but I also think that they wanted Sarah to win after that FS (well, obviously they did:lol: that's not in contest). The only way they could do that was by placing Irina above MK. It's hard to call it a conspiracy when ordinals are so freaking weird.

Edit: I mean, I can see why they did it. They wanted Sarah in first. But I still think that Irina had a worse FS than MK. That's one reason why COP rocks.

[Sashastar917]

Edit: I mean, I can see why they did it. They wanted Sarah in first. But I still think that Irina had a worse FS than MK. That's one reason why COP rocks.
Of course it rocks to you, the educated spectator, and in theory. However, as someone who has to skate under it, I (and my extremely sore back) are going to have to disagree with you. =-P

Anyways, I liked Sarah's skating, she was never really my favorite, but I did enjoy watching her. I actually preferred her skating to Emily's by a mile, even with the flutz.

[michiruwater]

Of course it rocks to you, the educated spectator, and in theory. However, as someone who has to skate under it, I (and my extremely sore back) are going to have to disagree with you. =-P

LOL, I mean the act of giving individual elements certain points so that things like ordinals don't make things weird. Not necessarily the craziness of the individual elements :-P I can agree that some of the requirements are either too strenuous or just plain weird (I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the latest changes in spiral regulations:confused:). I meant the actual numbers themselves are something I appreciate more. 6.0 had its merits but it's more clear-cut this way.

[shine_brighter]

I just watched her performance on Youtube again. I'm not very impressed. Even my little sister, who was watching it with me, said "That's not very good, it's nothing like 'wow' (She's eight, I'm turning her into a Sasha snot, haha.)

What was the conspiracy Charlotte is talking about? I don't get how they had to put Irina in front of Michelle?

[Particle Man]

Well, what you're saying is that the NINE judges were essentially in collusion, manipulating FS placements in order to achieve a desired result in medals. And you are doing so without providing any evidence to support it. These are the same panels of judges that would often come up with scores ranging from 4.9 to 5.8, or some would put a skater in 1st while another put them in 7th. But sans evidence, we are to believe that on that night, they all came together to fix the results. Something which - how could they even plan this out in advance? No one knew the results would end up so close. Towards the end of the Olympic FS, they just all 9 came together on the fly and said "let's fix this puppy!" The phrase "paranoid conspiracy theory" comes to mind, and I don't know how to say it any more nicely. On the one hand you accuse them of unfair manipulation with the intention of saving the perception of their sport, but then say you agree with their overall intentions. I certainly don't agree with it, if it is somehow true. Either Sarah Hughes won the OGM fairly, or she didn't. The first is great, the second is not. I don't support an "ends justify the means" mentality.

Honestly, this whole thing sounds a lot like something I'd expect to be concocted on another "unnamed" board, by people sitting around with nothing better to do. There's endless conspiracy theories on the net, and my response is the same. To poke holes anywhere I can, and to say "show me the evidence." I don't see any here.

pelladon, let's start talking about Bush-bashing, congress and politics. I think that's a safer road to go down...

[michiruwater]

Michelle won the SP. Sarah was 4th.

1st in the SP is worth .5 points. 4th is worth 2.0

Sarah won the FS. This is worth 1.0 points, so she had 3.0 points altogether.

I think MK should have gotten second. 2nd place in the FS is worth 2.0 points, which would have given her 2.5 points. She would have been champion. They had to place her behind Irina (who had 1.0 points from the SP) in order to give her the same or fewer points than Sarah had altogether. Irina's 2nd in the SP and the LP gave her 3.0 points altogether, and higher placement in the LP determines the champion. Thus,
1. Sarah - 3.0 (1st in LP)
2. Irina - 3.0
3. MK - 3.5

If MK had beat Irina, it would have been:

1. MK - 2.5
2. Sarah - 3.0
3. Irina - 4.0

The results are here: http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG004.HTM

9 judges didn't do anything, as you can see here, the opinions were all over the damned place. Some people had Sarah 4th in the FS O_o Which... I don't know how that happened but okay. Looking at all of it gives me a headache.

Edit: O_o Particle Man, honestly, why are you taking me so seriously? I don't get it. This is just my opinion. I'm sorry if you disagree with it, I can see why you wouldn't. That's fine.

[sunsetlily]

Hmm, a bland program that brought the crowd to its feet. Interesting fact - she couldn't even hear the end of her music because the crowd got so loud they drowned it out completely, so she just had to wing it at the end. I guess we were just watching a different program...

That doesn't mean anything. Sometimes watching things in person and watching things on TV make a huge difference. There's been times when I didn't feel it but the crowd went nuts, i.e. Irina's 2005 World LP. Everyone talks about how great it is, but when I watched it, I didn't see much. It just seemed like she'd jump and everyone would scream bloody murder.

[Sashastar917]

LOL, I mean the act of giving individual elements certain points so that things like ordinals don't make things weird. Not necessarily the craziness of the individual elements :-P I can agree that some of the requirements are either too strenuous or just plain weird (I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the latest changes in spiral regulations:confused:). I meant the actual numbers themselves are something I appreciate more. 6.0 had its merits but it's more clear-cut this way.
Oh, I totally agree with that. I think that each element having a set amount of points is forcing us to be come more complete, all-around skaters. Ugh, the spirals, lets not even go there.:rolleyes:

sunsetlily, ITA about Ira's LP at worlds 05. I think it was more the fact that she was in Russia (IIRC) and it was more of a personal triumph for her being able to come back and skate after so many health problems, etc.

[michiruwater]

Oh, I totally agree with that. I think that each element having a set amount of points is forcing us to be come more complete, all-around skaters. Ugh, the spirals, lets not even go there.:rolleyes:

Alright, good to know we're on the same page, and I agree about the all-around skaters thing too. (Memo to Miki: I love you. Fix the spiral.)

sunsetlily, ITA about Ira's LP at worlds 05. I think it was more the fact that she was in Russia (IIRC) and it was more of a personal triumph for her being able to come back and skate after so many health problems, etc.

This is what I was going to say. I haven't watched that particular program in a while, but the fact that she was in Russia combined with the huge comeback from the personal tragedies (she was freaking 9th the year before:eek: as well) is probably what got the crowd reaction.

[sunsetlily]

(Memo to Miki: I love you. Fix the spiral.)


Hahaha...yeah. Though I think its gotten at least a tinsy bit better since last year..

[michiruwater]

Hahaha...yeah. Though I think its gotten at least a tinsy bit better since last year..

In the videos I've seen of this summer, it looks like it's improving, which is freaking wonderful. I hope it stays that way ^_^

[Particle Man]

O_o Particle Man, honestly, why are you taking me so seriously? I don't get it. This is just my opinion. I'm sorry if you disagree with it, I can see why you wouldn't. That's fine.

This is a Sarah Hughes thread, and I certainly have a right to respond, because we are talking here about 2 staggeringly different things:

An Olympic moment of a lifetime, where going into the free skate, a girl faced insurmountable odds, had the skate of her life, and by a combination of her own determination and just the right outcomes of the other skaters managed to win a comeback Olympic Gold, realize her lifelong dream, restore faith in ISU judging, thrill millions of people and honor her home state of New York in a seemingly cosmic event of post 9/11 good karma (which she followed with an exhibition program paying tribute to the fallen heroes of 9/11)

or

An untalented skater with cheated-jumps skates a "bland" program and gets lucky, unfairly stealing the OGM from Michelle by way of collusion and judging improprieties.

Now why would anyone get upset about THAT? :eek:

[sunsetlily]

In the videos I've seen of this summer, it looks like it's improving, which is freaking wonderful. I hope it stays that way ^_^

Yeah, because it really brings down the total impact of the program. Some spirals are just kind of there. They don't make an impression like Sasha's do. But Miki's are killer attention grabbers. If she could fix her spirals, I think her performances as a whole could leave better impressions. I don't like her Biellmann spins either...but that's just me. She's marvelous otherwise.

[michiruwater]

Um. Well, it looks to me like you're combining everything everyone said into one thing and getting angry at me over it?...

Cause I didn't say any of that whatsoever, just that I felt that Irina should have placed below MK in the FS.

I never said that she had a cheated jumps (that was Lanie), or was untalented (that was Leyla and maybe other people), or skated a bland program (that was Leyla), or got lucky (did anyone say this?), or stole MK's gold (I don't think anyone said this).

I am not saying that Sarah stole MK's OGM. I don't even really like MK. In my world, it should have had a COP-type system, MK should have placed above Irina, and Sarah still should have won. But because of that stupid ordinal system, this was impossible. Okay? That is all I meant. That I thought MK skated better than Irina. But she could not have placed above Irina without taking the gold medal, and Sarah clearly deserved the gold medal. That's it. End of story. I said very little about Sarah. In fact I pretty much said nothing about Sarah.

Yeah, because it really brings down the total impact of the program. Some spirals are just kind of there. They don't make an impression like Sasha's do. But Miki's are killer attention grabbers. If she could fix her spirals, I think her performances as a whole could leave better impressions. I don't like her Biellmann spins either...but that's just me. She's marvelous otherwise.

I agree completely. Well, except about the Biellmann, I actually can't recall her Biellmann offhand. Guess I never rally noticed it. But I'm always watching with a "Go Miki!" mantra in my head... and then the spiral happens and I cringe and I think, "Eh, all of SashaFans is probably thinking, 'Why does Charlotte like her?' right now and recalling Sasha's perfect spiral..." :P

[sunsetlily]

I agree completely. Well, except about the Biellmann, I actually can't recall her Biellmann offhand. Guess I never rally noticed it. But I'm always watching with a "Go Miki!" mantra in my head... and then the spiral happens and I cringe and I think, "Eh, all of SashaFans is probably thinking, 'Why does Charlotte like her?' right now and recalling Sasha's perfect spiral..." :P

Hahahaha! I think of you everytime I watch her lol. I like her, too, so don't feel so alone.

And nobody said she stole MK's gold except for PM.
And may I remind you - Michelle got Bronze. Without Sarah, Irina would have won gold, not Michelle. So despite a lot of MK's fans unkind statements, Sarah really did not "steal" a thing from Michelle, except incidentally an OSM which Michelle already had anyway.

[Lanie]

OMG don't make me get into Irina winning 2005 Worlds... GRRRRR :mad: x10000. Ahem. That was horrible.

[sunsetlily]

sunsetlily, ITA about Ira's LP at worlds 05. I think it was more the fact that she was in Russia (IIRC) and it was more of a personal triumph for her being able to come back and skate after so many health problems, etc.

This is what I was going to say. I haven't watched that particular program in a while, but the fact that she was in Russia combined with the huge comeback from the personal tragedies (she was freaking 9th the year before:eek: as well) is probably what got the crowd reaction.

OMG don't make me get into Irina winning 2005 Worlds... GRRRRR :mad: x10000. Ahem. That was horrible.

Oh...well. I guess I'm not alone on this opinion. :P Good.

[Particle Man]

And nobody said she stole MK's gold except for PM.

lily, if someone says "If Sarah hadn't won, Michelle would have won" and then says "Sarah only won OGM because the judges fixed the results" then the logical conclusion is that they are saying Michelle was cheated of the OGM. How can you conclude anything else? That is simple reasoning. Then after the fact she claims "no I never said that," but it really seems logically inconsistent. Nevertheless I have to take her at her word. But just don't even start with me, lily, for doing nothing other than use basic reasoning in defense of Sarah.

For the sake of reference and fairness, I actually went and compiled a list of the negatives said about Sarah in this thread, but it was so godawful I couldn't post it. A list consisting entirely of other people's comments in this thread. There's more negative comments about Sarah in this thread than I can really even believe. Deja vu from you-know-where. Thought you guys were better than that. I think I'll just bow out and watch people flame Sarah until the thread gets locked... By the way, SCFan made the "lucky" comment at the top of page 2, which completes the list.

And to Sasha Spiral, Emma7639, pelladon, & futurechampion2: I'm glad you enjoyed Sarah's OGM-winning free skate as much as I did. I guess we are in the minority of this thread/board, but remembering the audience reaction assures me that we aren't in the minority overall...

[michiruwater]

In defense of one thing, I only pointed out that if Sarah hadn't won, Michelle probably would have won gold and not silver in order to correct what you said in I think your first post?...

And I don't understand how you don't get that what I meant was that the LP should have been 1. Sarah, 2. Michelle, 3. Irina and Sarah should have won, but that that was impossible and never could have happened. I thought I explained myself clearly.

Or am I just completely misinterpreting something? Who, exactly, are you mad at? I don't get it.

The only negativity I really see here is you. The rest of us are conversing just fine.

And by the way, I DID ENJOY SARAH'S SKATE. For bleeding Christ, have I ever, once in this thread, said that she didn't deserve first place?

When I said "They had to give it to Sarah", I meant that that was because she was so clearly, utterly the best that night that all hell would have been justly raise if she hadn't won.

I said "One thing that bothers me immensely about Sarah's OGM is that her SP wasn't good." Which is true. She was amazing in the LP, but I still hate that her SP wasn't great as well.

I wrote: "But yes, Sarah's LP was absolute magic. She's not that great a skater, as shown by her 6th place at Worlds the next year (which must have been embarassing), but on that particular night, her LP was magical."

If it bothers you that I said she's that great an overall skater, I'm sorry. That is my opinion. Other than that night, I really have a hard time watching her. That night was amazing, as I said, but she's not my favourite skater. I'm sorry. I am allowed to think this.

And that's it. All I've said since then was to further clarify myself and tell you exactly what I said in the beginning of this post: That I thought MK skated better than Irina.

Do you get it now?

[Lanie]

This is why the ordinal system was stupid. To get the results they needed to get for gold they had to mess around with everyone else's marks.

COP is light years ahead of that crap.

[michiruwater]

This is why the ordinal system was stupid. To get the results they needed to get for gold they had to mess around with everyone else's marks.

COP is light years ahead of that crap.

Oh Lord yes, and my hatred of ordinals is growing with every post to this thread:lol: Thank God for a numbering system that makes sense in the end.

By the way, Lanie, except a long PM from me shortly. :)

[pelladon]

....
And to Sasha Spiral, Emma7639, pelladon, & futurechampion2: I'm glad you enjoyed Sarah's OGM-winning free skate as much as I did. I guess we are in the minority of this thread/board, but remembering the audience reaction assures me that we aren't in the minority overall...

I tried looking for irregularities in the ladies judging, and IMO, didn't find anything major. I think the judges were under enormous pressure to avoid controversy (because of the pairs scandal) and I think the results were fair.

I didn't expect everyone to love Sarah's performance, but I didn't expect outright disdain for it. Sarah was not a bad skater, not perfect, but was quite capable (at the time). Oh well, it's not worth getting riled about.

Final note: People need to be careful about applying COP attributes to skater's 6.0 programs. Very different criteria and standards. I've noticed people complaining about technical issues, that's a COP function. 6.0 judged the skating overall, mainly took off on deductions.

[Lanie]

see, people get confused.

This wasn't JUST 6.0. 6.0/OBO--ordinals by ordinals. 6.0 judged the skating overall, subjectively, but what was important was not the marks: but the ordinals given by the judges. The marks were just placeholders to determine the ordinals.

[pelladon]

see, people get confused.

This wasn't JUST 6.0. 6.0/OBO--ordinals by ordinals. 6.0 judged the skating overall, subjectively, but what was important was not the marks: but the ordinals given by the judges. The marks were just placeholders to determine the ordinals.

I didn't mean to say 6.0 was the only system. OBO (one by one) was used at the olympics and uses comparisons against other skaters. It compared ordinals and added up "wins". But it still emphasized the overall performance and not just strong elements (in theory that is). Just like 6.0. OBO was actually designed to eliminate flips, but that's another story.

[MiishGiinahX]

:arrow: well, i think that this skater has a very pretty layback.

and sasha (littleskateress) I so agree with you on the open mouth jump exits! very irritating:wallbash:

she is not my all-time favourite, but she's pretty good.

[sunsetlily]

It doesn't matter what I think, anyway. I have no opinion on the matter because all I remember from SLC is thinking, "Wow, that Sasha Cohen is amazing. I'm going to look her up on the internet when this is done.", and I did, and also my mom saying, "Wow. That's an upset."

[sonador16]

This is a Sarah Hughes thread, and I certainly have a right to respond, because we are talking here about 2 staggeringly different things:

An Olympic moment of a lifetime, where going into the free skate, a girl faced insurmountable odds, had the skate of her life, and by a combination of her own determination and just the right outcomes of the other skaters managed to win a comeback Olympic Gold, realize her lifelong dream, restore faith in ISU judging, thrill millions of people and honor her home state of New York in a seemingly cosmic event of post 9/11 good karma (which she followed with an exhibition program paying tribute to the fallen heroes of 9/11)

or

An untalented skater with cheated-jumps skates a "bland" program and gets lucky, unfairly stealing the OGM from Michelle by way of collusion and judging improprieties.

Now why would anyone get upset about THAT? :eek:

Umm..ok. See, there are two ways to color any situation. You could say the same for Plushy's SP at Torino:

Extremely talented skater skates his heart out, lands a 4/3/2, and gets 90+ points for an awesome program

OR

Dull, boring skater who just happens to have the muscle to pull off a 4/3/2, horrible presentation and arm flailing, and the judges just hold up their little darling by giving him 90+ points.

Both are valid, depending on how you look at it.

I didn't see ANYONE saying that Sarah "stole" MK's gold, except you, as Lauren so aptly pointed out.

Furthermore, NO ONE called Sarah untalented. Mediocre, bland, whatever, but no one said she was untalented. You don't make it to the Olympics without some amount of talent.

And lastly, there was no one talking about judging collusion/improprieties except,...*gasp* YOU! Charlotte was saying that the results were all over the place and really confusing, but not that all nine judges conspired to cheat MK and give Sarah the gold!

And EVENFURTHERMORE, there is honestly no reason to do that. At that time, Sarah was the second best US skater, not well known internationally. She didn't have much pull with the ISU or international judges. If there was any collusion (WHICH THERE WAS NOT), it would have been to give Ira or MK the gold, not Sarah.

So as you can see, your accusations are severely inaccurate.

Um. Well, it looks to me like you're combining everything everyone said into one thing and getting angry at me over it?...

Cause I didn't say any of that whatsoever, just that I felt that Irina should have placed below MK in the FS.

I never said that she had a cheated jumps (that was Lanie), or was untalented (that was Leyla and maybe other people), or skated a bland program (that was Leyla), or got lucky (did anyone say this?), or stole MK's gold (I don't think anyone said this).

I am not saying that Sarah stole MK's OGM. I don't even really like MK. In my world, it should have had a COP-type system, MK should have placed above Irina, and Sarah still should have won. But because of that stupid ordinal system, this was impossible. Okay? That is all I meant. That I thought MK skated better than Irina. But she could not have placed above Irina without taking the gold medal, and Sarah clearly deserved the gold medal. That's it. End of story. I said very little about Sarah. In fact I pretty much said nothing about Sarah.


I never said Sarah was untalented. What I DID say was that I have a huge amount of respect for her.

I did call her program "bland". So sue me.

And PM? She's a little American girl, skating in an American Olympics, the underdog skating the performance of her life in front of a home crowd. No duh, people got excited. That doesn't mean her skating is either HORRIBLE or SUPERB.

I never said I hated Sarah or her skate, or that it was dull or horrible, or that she was untalented.

Like I said before, I don't feel the magic in that performance. She skates very "on top of the music" and it's not very deep, if you get me.

If you disagree, then that's fine. I'm allowed to express my own opinion, aren't I?

And I don't believe I stated "IT WAS BLAND" as a fact. In fact, that whole post was about "these are my impressions, and why I feel that way." Whereas, YOU are stating "OMG SARAH'S SKATE WAS THE MOST BRILLIANT THING EVER AND NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO DISAGREE!" as a fact. Go figure.

Oh and one last thing. With your whole little self righteous post about "bowing out and watching us flame Sarah until the thread gets locked"...if you look back and read the beginning of this thread?

WE were having a perfectly civil discussion about Sarah and her virtues and flaws without bashing. Mmmhmm. Until you posted, accusing us (or maybe just me?) of believing that Michelle got robbed and therefore Sarah was a lazy dishonest person, or some such nonsense.

Go back and check, if you don't believe me.

[Particle Man]

"awkward, no magic, no passion, no soul, underrotated (cheated) jumps, lumbering posture, horrible spirals, mediocre artistry, shallow choreography, generic hand-flailing, poor posture, bad flutzer, no expression"

That is a summary of the negatives in just the FIRST FOUR POSTS of this thread, before I even entered it! :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but if you're trying to take the position that _I_ am the "negative influence" in this thread, you are sorely mistaken.

Since you specifically attacked my character, this post was required to defend it. I'm not commenting any further, the above quotes speak for themselves.

[sunsetlily]

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the first four posts were of people giving a list of what they didn't like about Sarah's skating and what they liked.

It's not like they just entered the thread and said those negatives. They did the pros and cons. There's a difference.

Littleskateress said this:
Positive:
She's having fun and enjoying herself. Lighthearted personality.
Good running edge out of her double axel.
Pretty catch-camel position.
Nice layback.
Fast ice coverage.

But you just made a list using some of her negatives, like mediocre artistry. Be fair in your arguments, please. ALL FOUR of the first posts in the thread had pros and cons.

[Sashacohenfan]

Just to say, that a negative comment is not necessarily a bash. A "bash" by definition IMO is negative comment intended to be hurtful. I personally commented on how mediocre Sarah's skating was but it was an opinion, a thought and was not intended as anything cruel.

I think it's hard to determine a "bash"..........

[Particle Man]

Just to say, that a negative comment is not necessarily a bash.

I never used the word bash. michiru said: "The only negativity I really see here is you." I found that personally offensive and responded to it, showing a long list of negativity before I even entered the thread, thus refuting her accusation.

People made negative comments about Sarah, I responded to them, those people got offended and started attacking my character. Where's the flaw in that chain of events? Placing it solely on me is ridiculous. What was my big offense that "started" everything, a single eye roll smiley? People can dish it out but they can't take it. I was having a perfectly reasonable and non-nasty debate for many pages till people started attacking my personal character. And even then I've tried to be reasonable. I have no problem with any comments about Sarah in this thread, except that I would debate them as this is a FORUM, but you can't deny there are many negative comments. And if peoples' position is that a bunch of people can make negative comments AND THEN try to stifle any further debate about them, and try to call the person that tries to debate them "negative", that's just ludicrous.

[Sashacohenfan]

Oh i didn't mean you, i meant that in general i wanted to say that! :D

[sonador16]

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the first four posts were of people giving a list of what they didn't like about Sarah's skating and what they liked.

It's not like they just entered the thread and said those negatives. They did the pros and cons. There's a difference.

Littleskateress said this:


But you just made a list using some of her negatives, like mediocre artistry. Be fair in your arguments, please. ALL FOUR of the first posts in the thread had pros and cons.


*bows down* THANK YOU LAUREN!

^and no, Charlotte didn't say that.

I, as in ME, as in sonador16, as in Leyla. I said that we were having civilized discussion until you joined. Not that all the negativity about Sarah is coming from you.

We did point out some of Sarah's flaws, but we ALSO pointed out the great things about her.

And I still maintain that we were being civilized and not bashing, but expressing pros and cons in a respectful way until you came along and accused us of whatever nonsense.

[Particle Man]

I don't believe Sarah has been "bashed" in this thread, although I am disturbed by people's apparent belief that debate about Sarah's negatives should be stifled.

[Particle Man]

And I still maintain that we were being civilized and not bashing, but expressing pros and cons in a respectful way until you came along and accused us of whatever nonsense.

Yep it's all because of an eye-roll smiley, that justifies everything afterward.

[Sashacohenfan]

*bows down* THANK YOU LAUREN!

^and no, Charlotte didn't say that.

I, as in ME, as in sonador16, as in Leyla. I said that we were having civilized discussion until you joined. Not that all the negativity about Sarah is coming from you.

We did point out some of Sarah's flaws, but we ALSO pointed out the great things about her.

And I still maintain that we were being civilized and not bashing, but expressing pros and cons in a respectful way until you came along and accused us of whatever nonsense.


Are you talking about me?! :confused:

[sonador16]

And may I remind you - Michelle got Bronze. Without Sarah, Irina would have won gold, not Michelle. So despite a lot of MK's fans unkind statements, Sarah really did not "steal" a thing from Michelle, except incidentally an OSM which Michelle already had anyway.



Where do you get the idea that "debate about Sarah's negatives should be stifled" ? I'm sorry, I don't get that at all. Please explain it to me.

And if you see, for the first several pages, even including your first post, everyone is able to calmly discuss what they want, without resorting to insults and sarcasm.

Then here you come:

I'm just saying, "first impressions." I think part of that 9-year old self is still present and doesn't want to give up on resenting Sarah, and that continues to color your opinion of her skate that night, but that's just my opinion. And maybe you didn't say MK was robbed, but others do, including even in this thread:



......... Hard to formulate a response to this one. I guess I'll just summarize it with: :rolleyes:

So you basically accuse me of being prejudiced when you don't even know me, and then bring up that MK was robbed an d whatnot Then, you rudely write off Charlotte

Hmm, a bland program that brought the crowd to its feet. Interesting fact - she couldn't even hear the end of her music because the crowd got so loud they drowned it out completely, so she just had to wing it at the end. I guess we were just watching a different program...


And here, blatant sarcasm that accomplishes nothing.

Do you see a problem here?

^ETA: No, no, Katya, not you, Particle Man.

[Sashacohenfan]

Lol ok i am getting so confused on this thread. :confused:

thanks Leyla, i was like huh?! :D

[shine_brighter]

I think you all should just drop it. Everything is an opinion, it's not right or wrong. I'm all for a debate, but I am getting SO F****** SICK of opening EVERY thread on here and wading through pages and pages and pages of posts.

I respect everyone here, and that includes what you all have to say, but enough is enough. There is nothing more, or new, to be said.

[Kay83]

I think you all should just drop it. Everything is an opinion, it's not right or wrong. I'm all for a debate, but I am getting SO F****** SICK of opening EVERY thread on here and wading through pages and pages and pages of posts.

I respect everyone here, and that includes what you all have to say, but enough is enough. There is nothing more, or new, to be said.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Nicole!!!

[pelladon]

No bashing? yet constantly harping about negatives for someone who no longer skates competitively is rather obsessive and tiresome. Peace.

[ems_loves_sasha]

Wow... Okay, I knew something had to have happened in here for there to be SEVEN pages. :eek: Particle Man, the problem wasn't you expressing your negative opinions... It was the sarcastic attitude you had in some of your posts later in the thread that upset people. Let's just end it now and get back on topic... Take it to a PM if you want to continue arguing.

I liked Sarah, but I didn't LOVE her. She was a good skater, but not fantastic. She had fairly good jumps, although there was something about them that I didn't like. Her artistry was okay, but not amazing. On the night of the Olympics, she deserved to win. She was just *on* that night. I thought it was a good performance, but if Michelle or Irina would have skated perfect in their longs like she did, I think they would have both been ahead of her. Like others said, something about her skating seemed a little awkward [that doesn't seem like the right word but I can't think of anything else to use]. I think if she would have continued skating, that may have gone away.

[Erinsk8]

I don't even want to get into this drama...but I do agree with what Emily just said. I don't care if you're a Sarah fan or not, but you really cannot logically deny that she deserved to win that night. She had the performance of her life. And anyone who dislikes her because they think she "stole Michelle's gold medal" needs to remember that it WAS Michelle's gold medal to lose, just as it was in 1998, and once again she blew it when it counted. She was not robbed by Sarah, she did that to herself.

[michiruwater]

And to clarify yet again, no one in this thread actually said that Sarah stole Michelle's gold medal. Things got blown way our of proportion of what was actually meant, and further attempts to clarify seemed to fall on deaf ears (though I think that the point has now gotten through. Not sure, but I think so :)). But no one ever actually said that.