Mark Lund rebuts his critics on Johnny Weir drama

[sasharussian]

I'm pretty much indifferent to the mini-drama brewing between Mark Lund and JW's fans. But here is an interesting statment claimed from Mark Lund. It's published on www.usfigureskating.org discussion forum. The authenticity yet to be verified.


"It has unfortunately become typical that journalists and members of the media who dare to comment about a celebrity or public figure that acts outrageously often come under attack. I see I am now one of those unfortunate targets. This is in reference to remarks I made during the television show Reflections on Ice regarding the reigning U.S. Men's Figure Skating Champion Johnny Weir.

My credentials in the sport and art of figure skating are well known, as is my orientation as an out gay man. I stand by my statement "overly out without being out" 100%. I say to Mr. Weir, "You enjoy being outspoken and a free spirit. You have said frequently that you have been brought up to speak your mind. However, you refuse to support the very community that paved the way for you." I say to all those that believe my comments about Mr. Weir were phobic to take a step back and realize the beliefs you are actually expressing. Mr. Weir is an individual who enjoys all the rights of the gay community without coming out to support the gay community. Now who is the hypocrite here? Most certainly not me.






With Mr. Weir posing for photos wearing heels and elaborate makeup in the pages of BlackBook magazine, I say, 'Please don't insult the grand drag queens of yesterday and today, unless you thank them for their tireless efforts of days past and present by acknowledging them publicly.'

My comments regarding his costuming were nothing more than what you see in the newsmagazines and on TV when journalists critique celebrities on the red carpet. I have never liked his costumes and they have become more and more elaborate in recent seasons. They do not represent the sport of figure skating that I love. Why don't we take a look at the competitive costumes of skaters like Robin Cousins and John Curry. They understood classical elegance. Without a slight to great ballet dancers, my comment that Mr. Weir looks like a prima ballerina on the ice was meant to illustrate what I feel is his outrageous presentation of the sport and art of figure skating. I know I am not alone in my comments.


As a gay man who grew up in a small town in the 1970's, I was able to look up to those in the sport of figure skating—gay and straight—who earned my admiration through character, dedication and sportsmanship. I am glad to say some of them are great friends of mine today.


Mr. Weir is free to wear what he wants, but he should back it up with actions. No one denies his enormous talent, but my comments were meant to reflect my feeling that he prefers drawing attention for being outrageous to drawing attention for being a great figure skater. The subject of the show on which I made my comments was a preview of the U.S. Figure Skating Championships, which is a competitive sporting event.


To Mr. Weir, and his apparent legions of fans, to quote the old scoring system, there has been no 6.0 in your collective performances."

[sunjoy]

Don't have time to answer this properly, but OK that changes things a lot. Lund is saying that Weir benefits from the acceptance that has been hard-won by gay people, gay athletes, and drag queens in the past, and yet apparently doesn't acknowlege this or support the gay community enough.

This is a long-standing argument within the gay community, (should people be "outed"), and like many long-standing arguments I suppose, there's merit to both sides.

I personally disagree rather strongly. I think it's not an US vs Them binary thing, nor do I think that someone's behavior needs to be categorized as straight or gay. There are so many more levels to it. To presume that Weir, or anyone else, is gay (a deep part of one's personality and gender identity) just because of surface-level behaviors is just as prejudiced as someone who says "You figure skate? That's so gay dude!".

And finally, what if Weir *is* indeed gay, and came out about it? He would then be Lund's darling -- a shining example of a talented gay man on ice. I really do understand where Lund is coming from, but it seems like he's trying to project his own battles against homophobia, legitimate and painful as they may have been, and make Johhny fight them for him.

Thanks for posting that though, it was a very interesting response by Lund, and the previous thread on the issue didn't mention the crucial fact that Lund is out-of-the-closet and gay, which means his remarks where *political* not *homophobic*. Huge difference.

[attyfan]

First, I don't see why Lund's own sexual orientation renders his remarks any less homophobic -- self hate is no less "hatred" than is any other kind.

Second, Weir's support (or lack thereof) for the gay community had no bearing on why he should/shouldn't (or will/won't) win Nationals -- so, why should it be mentioned on a show, supposedly about skating called "Countdown to Nationals"? There may be an appropriate forum to discuss what (if anything) celebrities owe to the communities that "back them", but a skating show isn't the right place for it. The one thing that Lund did not address is his choice of forum.

[sasharussian]

First, I don't see why Lund's own sexual orientation renders his remarks any less homophobic -- self hate is no less "hatred" than is any other kind.

Second, Weir's support (or lack thereof) for the gay community had no bearing on why he should/shouldn't (or will/won't) win Nationals -- so, why should it be mentioned on a show, supposedly about skating called "Countdown to Nationals"? There may be an appropriate forum to discuss what (if anything) celebrities owe to the communities that "back them", but a skating show isn't the right place for it. The one thing that Lund did not address is his choice of forum.


I may sound a bit ignorant here. But what's all the fuss about the back for JW from his supposed 'community'? I find this is amusing. What exactly does JW owe to his 'community'?

[attyfan]

I may sound a bit ignorant here. But what's all the fuss about the back for JW from his supposed 'community'? I find this is amusing. What exactly does JW owe to his 'community'?

I wonder the same thing. Mark Lund, however, thinks that Johnny owes something to the "gay community", and used Johnny's alleged "debt" (whatsoever that might be) to justify viriolic remarks on the "Countdown to Nationals". My comments merely set forth why I think his purported "justification" is idiotic -- even if he is right on the merits (i.e., there is some "duty" that Johnny owes to his "community" that Johnny hasn't fulfilled), it still didn't belong on a skating show.

[sasharussian]

I wonder the same thing. Mark Lund, however, thinks that Johnny owes something to the "gay community", and used Johnny's alleged "debt" (whatsoever that might be) to justify viriolic remarks on the "Countdown to Nationals". My comments merely set forth why I think his purported "justification" is idiotic -- even if he is right on the merits (i.e., there is some "duty" that Johnny owes to his "community" that Johnny hasn't fulfilled), it still didn't belong on a skating show.

It's still very confusing. Have we ever heard any sorts of backing, either financially or spiritually, from JW's 'community'? If there is any evidence of this kind, this guy may or may not have a point.

If a gay politician gets money from his community but then turns a blind eye later, then there may be some justification of his argument.

JW example is pretty lame and ridiculous.

[sunjoy]

First, I don't see why Lund's own sexual orientation renders his remarks any less homophobic -- self hate is no less "hatred" than is any other kind.I can't remember the exact comment, but something like "as out as one can be without actually being out". Coming from a hater, that's a disparaging remark. Coming from someone gay-friendly, which I'm assuming Lund is, it's not at all disparaging of homosexuality, although it makes stereotypical assumptions. There didn't seem to be any self-hate in his response letter either. A lot of politics, but not self hate. Self hate would be saying that gay people who choose to act flambouyant, should not do that because it makes gays seem bad to mainstream culture. Lund was saying the opposite -- that someone who acts flamboyant ought to proudly say that they are gay. Note, I disagree with this in several ways, but I understand it, and it's not *homophobic*. It is, rather silly though.

The one thing that Lund did not address is his choice of forum.Agreed. He was bringing an activist agenda along with him. About the same, I suppose, if a commentator who's a PETA supporter went off on Johnny and Tarasova for wearing fur. I don't think people should shut up about what they believe in, and to an extent using national media to advance one's agenda is OK, as long as it remains professional, and doesn't take up the main focus of what that commentator is saying. Since I didn't watch the broadcast, I can't say whether Lund crossed the line or not.

I may sound a bit ignorant here. But what's all the fuss about the back for JW from his supposed 'community'? I find this is amusing. What exactly does JW owe to his 'community'?To be the best skater he can be. To expect anything else is just queer. (Yes I'm being sarcastic at Lund's expense).

[futurechampion2]

I agree with all sunjoys responses, but I dont get why people have to make such a big deal out of things you know?

a first people saying stuff about johnny was amusing, Im kinda just tired of it now. I don't have a problem with johnny wier or like anything he does or anything. Its fine, why does this mark lund guy care about what johnny does? just because mark thinks he's gay but isnt out or something?thats none of marks business if you ask me...nobody has to talk about their sexual orientation if they don't want to right? I mean its kind of obvious that if johnny is gay he isnt saying so just because he likes the attention of peope trying to guess if he's gay.....but what if he isn't gay? I guess it wold work in his favor if he would just come out- I really don't think anyone is going to change their mind about him, he's been around long enough. Look at rudy galindo lol everybody loves him! this post was probably like really contradicting lol but i am just tired of all this drama with johnny.... we all know he can talk the talk, but its time fo rhim to walk the walk too

IMO its like, skate first...then talk, you know?

[Ballettmaus]

nobody has to talk about their sexual orientation if they don't want to right? I mean its kind of obvious that if johnny is gay he isnt saying so just because he likes the attention of peope trying to guess if he's gay.....but what if he isn't gay? I guess it wold work in his favor if he would just come out- I really don't think anyone is going to change their mind about him, he's been around long enough. Look at rudy galindo lol everybody loves him! this post was probably like really contradicting lol but i am just tired of all this drama with johnny....


As far as I know Johnny repeatedly stated that he does not like to talk about his private life in public, that it's off limits. So what Lund demands or even says in public is a sign of not respecting Weir in my eyes.
But apparently Lund is not fond of Weir for whatever reason. I saw the discussed part on youtube and I think Lund's comments don't belong on TV and they show certainly that he is either ignorant or knows nothing about skating. After all he stated that "The Swan" was a mistake. He also said he does not need to see a Prima Ballerina on the ice while they were discussion whether Johnny had a chance of winning Nationals and how strong Lysacek would be etc. That to me means he only wants masculine guys on the ice, so probably more or less straight guys, which would be kind of a contradition to what he said before.
He probably was just looking to say bad things about Johhny. The problem as it seems, is that it completely backfired. Serves him right, I think.

[michiruwater]

Lund is being a hypocrite - he wasn't out at Johnny's age, either.

What do you mean? Are you forgetting the dozens of effeminate male figure skaters that came before Johnny that were largely successful and beloved by fans of the sport? As sure as I stand, Lund is surely dealing with a ridiculous amount of self-hatred. "Well let's see, maybe if I criticize everything that seems gay about Johnny Weir, and praise everything that seems straight about Evan Lysacek, the straighties will love me more and forget my eyebrows look like they were done by Zsa Zsa Gabor." Watching the program, it's sickening. He spouts out everything he possibly can to scathingly attack Johnny — as a skater and as a person.

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/01/11/130124.php

[FieldsOfGold]

Lund is being an idiot. Who cares if Johnny's gay or straight? The only thing he said on there that made sense was that he was commentating on a competitive figure skating event. Since when did commentating include snide remarks about a person's sexuality? Bottom line: Johnny's sexuality is his business. He can wear heels, eyeshadow, makeup, hell a bra! and he still doesn't have to say whether or not he's gay or straight. This is the only thing I hate about figure skating and sports in general. No one can just let a skater skate. No one can just let a player play. Everything, from what they wear to how they act is unbearably scrutinzed. It almost makes me wonder why we have professional sports at all. Seldom is the athlete actually looked at.

Another thing that makes me laugh is the fact that Kerrigan was there trying to be all sunshine and bubbles when she was caught badmouthing who knows what when she thought he mike was off on a float....at Disneyland! It's ridiculus. Everyone within the media who makes themselves out to be all high and mighty are pure hypocrites.

[sasharussian]

Another thing that makes me laugh is the fact that Kerrigan was there trying to be all sunshine and bubbles when she was caught badmouthing who knows what when she thought he mike was off on a float....at Disneyland! It's ridiculus. Everyone within the media who makes themselves out to be all high and mighty are pure hypocrites.

Can you explain more??? i am very interested ...

[sunjoy]

Lund is being a hypocrite - he wasn't out at Johnny's age, either.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/01/11/130124.phpThat's a good article. I posted a long response to it there (as sunjoy). Also, for those who haven't seen the broadcast, there's a link to the youTube there as well.

[FieldsOfGold]

Can you explain more??? i am very interested ...

It was in the news a while back. You can read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Kerrigan). Her excuse is plausible. But it definitely seems a little too handy.

[loveskating]

I watched that nonsense. The ABC commentator was participating fully in bashing Johnney. If anyone believes this all came up spontaneously, they are mistaken.

Perhaps ABC is trying to create a drama to pull people into watching Nationals based on, duh, something besides skating?

On the issue of Johnney (who gives a flying hoot about Mark Lund) I found it interesting how, at work, my casual skating fan acquaintances love Johnney and want him to win (they also like Evan). They DO think Johnney has a bad attitude, but that he is a rebel without a cause, a James Dean type.

None of them saw that show; I just made it a point to ask them what they thought about Johnney.

P.S. On Nancy Kerrigan, I think she just used the last pass I had for her.

P.S.S. On Johnney,

(1) unless and until he says he is gay, I don't know that he is (everyone thought Kulik was gay, but he wasn't);

(2) speculation about whether someone is gay or not is evil and cruel and serves no purpose other than bullying, sometimes for personal gain;

(3) whether he is gay or not, in or out, bisexual or ceilbate, married or single, I couild give a flying HOOT, one way or the other -- but if he would get himself a quad, I'd respect him a lot more as to his competitive skating; however, having said that, show wise I'd rather watch Kulik, Johney, then Abt, in that order.

[Ballettmaus]

(2) speculation about whether someone is gay or not is evil and cruel and serves no purpose other than bullying, sometimes for personal gain;


I am not sure you meant it the way you wrote it but what you're implying here is that being gay is a bad thing. That it would not be cruel and evil to speculate if someone were heterosexual, which automatically makes being homosexual a bad thing.
In fact, I don't see anything cruel or evil in speculating whether someone is homo or hetero, that doesn't change the person it's just a discussion about his sexual orientation... an interest a lot of fans of whoever always have. Only that it's obvious with a lot of other stars/athletes etc.
But to me it's kind of like speculating whether or not "that" girl was his girlfriend or if "that" ring means he's engaged. (this is not about Johnny but a general example)

[michiruwater]

I am not sure you meant it the way you wrote it but what you're implying here is that being gay is a bad thing. That it would not be cruel and evil to speculate if someone were heterosexual, which automatically makes being homosexual a bad thing.
In fact, I don't see anything cruel or evil in speculating whether someone is homo or hetero, that doesn't change the person it's just a discussion about his sexual orientation... an interest a lot of fans of whoever always have. Only that it's obvious with a lot of other stars/athletes etc.
But to me it's kind of like speculating whether or not "that" girl was his girlfriend or if "that" ring means he's engaged. (this is not about Johnny but a general example)

You said it exactly. I don't seem harm in speculating about some one's sexual orientation, if you see no problem with being gay or straight or whatever. But a lot of girls are in love with Johnny and feel it's a very pertinent question :lol:

[ems_loves_sasha]

(1) unless and until he says he is gay, I don't know that he is (everyone thought Kulik was gay, but he wasn't);


I agree with this. I'm a huge fan but everybody including me has suspected and wondered what his sexuality is. That doesn't mean we all ASSUME that he is either gay or straight, but a lot of us have wondered. But the thing is, what if he is straight? So many people just assume he isn't going by his so-called "flamboyant" actions, graceful, light, skating, and his love for beautiful things... But you can't always just go by this. So maybe he likes a lot of feminine things and skates less masculine than most men's skaters, but you can't just assume he's gay from that, and if in fact he is straight, it has to really suck about the media and a good amount of fans just assuming he's the sexual orientation that he isn't. People shouldn't just assume anything that they can't prove is 100% true.

[futurechampion2]

ok well I will admit I made my first post without actually watching the video, but I just watched it and I just wanted to say that the first part in the beginning where johnny was talking was probaly the classiest things Ive ever heard him say! lol so I like him even better!


anywqay for those of you who havnt seen it- here it is (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AwDarorjN6c)

haha mark just likes evan because he's hotter

seriousley though I had no idea that this was that bad! this was pretty much just like an oportunity to say everything bad they possibly could about johnny! everything they said was just disgusting I really hate both of them now (nancy kerrigan and mark lund) how tacky to publicly bash somebody like that? its so stupid like why would you do that? I don't understand, I mean its one thing to say that stuff when your talking to your friend or soemthing, you can't help what you feel about things. BUt they just totally let go and like ate johnny alive! YOud ont need to say stuff like that on tv! poor johnny! luckily hes a strong person that he can deal with hearing stuff like that you know? you don't have to choose one skater you want to win...you could choose like five skaters and root for them all you know? you dont have to love one and hate the other...that was just ridiculous

all I have to say after watching that is...yuck.

also its really rude that mark would say that johnny was gay when johnny doesnt like to talk about it himself like just how tacky! gross!

[girlzrock_17]

Wow, I just watched the video for the first time too I have to admit, and it was even worse than reading about it...how Mark and Lou and Nancy were just all sitting there giggling at their little jokes and all :rolleyes: How incredibly rude. I'd like to see how they would act if they met Johnny on the street after saying all those obnoxious and mean things about him.
And Mark Lund? Yuck.

[sunjoy]

this was pretty much just like an oportunity to say everything bad they possibly could about johnny! everything they said was just disgusting I really hate both of them now (nancy kerrigan and mark lund) From what I remember Kerrigan wasn't so bad (except that she didn't contradict the other two, and often nodded her head to what they said). But she didn't bash Johnny that much. She said that if he skates well, he'll put up a good competition, but that she didn't think he'd win. She said his new programs look a little flat, and I agree, as well as did the commentators during Cup of Russia and Skate Canada. Whethe you agree or not, those are reasonable statements that can be defended.

Lund was just out of control though.

[loveskating]

I am not sure you meant it the way you wrote it but what you're implying here is that being gay is a bad thing.

Great point, and true; sorry if I inadvertently implied that.

However, having said that, one must also admit that, unfortunately, there are many people, and some are employers, in this society who think being gay is very bad indeed.

[Ballettmaus]

Great point, and true; sorry if I inadvertently implied that.

However, having said that, one must also admit that, unfortunately, there are many people, and some are employers, in this society who think being gay is very bad indeed.

I know that this is unfortunately still the case, but I also wanted you to have a chance to correct yourself, that is why I just pointed out what it implies without being meant to :)